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Weapon Cancel Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by shot, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Hello!
    For those that were not aware, the recent update of MapleLegends fixed the wall tapping bug that was used to save the party some time when it was activated from bosses such as scar/targa, or horntail, which KimberlyKimberly was able to give an official statement on Legends discord:
    Personally, I knew this bug will get fixed eventually because it was a type of an exploit that was never intended as a main feature, and I was glad that it has been patched. HOWEVER, now that most (if not all) exploits to remove such cancels have been patched, I wanted to bring up an open discussion about ways in which we could rely less on RNG factor of these cancels to begin with.

    Here is my opinion- I believe having weapon/magic cancels from bosses is a flawed system created by Neckson to begin with because the buff itself is 100% reliant on RNG and there is absolutely nothing a person could do to combat against it. The most logical counter argument I could think of by Neckson is that they wanted to have diverse number of classes for bossing (like mages ignoring weapon cancels) but that is simply not the case because mages excel at AOE skills instead of single-target, thus they are not appealing to be present during bossing. So now when the boss activates weapon cancel, only thing people could do is do nothing or play a quick round of omok, which I found it to be frustrating, especially at times when RNG god is not on my side and keeps on cancelling every 30 seconds.

    So what is my proposed solution? The general idea is simple- make cancels less RNG heavy and more skill based. Just as holy shield protects people from abnormal status for short duration and we have heroes will to get out from being seduced, I'd like to see ways in which can do the same to weapon/magic cancels. Every bosses in the server have a set of cool downs after each skill is used (HT sed timer for example), which skilled players can possibly combat against it as long as they get the timings correct. The matter of how/when a boss uses the skill is still a little bit RNG based, but I believe this way strikes a fairly good balance between RNG vs skill.

    For possible way(s) the change can be implemented, the closest skill that would be good to be reexamined would be warrior's armor/magic/power crash since it deals with canceling out mob's specific set of skills. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on warriors so I cannot specifically tell how the skill works, but I believe it would be a good starting point.

    If you have other opinions/topics you want to talk about, feel free to discuss them here. I would love to listen to other people's opinion on this OnionCoffee
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    Just want give the standard reply that the exploit will not be reverted. Besides that I am open ears for ideas, but don't expect something major to happen when you play an Old School MapleStory server.
     
  3. OP
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    shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    I am totally fine with that as an old exploit required absolutely 0 skills to remove the cancels (thus why its called an exploit :p). Just wanted to hear what everyone else thinks about it ;)
     
  4. Sloppy
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    Sloppy Horny Mushroom

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    I know at least in later versions(I cant think of a server that actually has that skill working unless I'm misinformed) magic crash would nullify the weapon cancels.
    You're point about people not being able to do anything when the skills activated is exactly what is intended tho so I don't understand how that is a point in implementing a way of removing the weapon/magic cancels. Keeps the difficulty factor.
     
  5. Heps
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    Heps Slimy

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    What is wall tapping?

    To battle with Weapon Cancel Attacks, a warrior with armor crash should have a chance to drop it.
     
  6. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    Wall tapping came as term because some maps were just big enough to trigger the reason why the exploit was possible. So the person tap the wall, and the Magic/Weapon cancel would disappear on his/her client, while it stayed for other (unless they tapped the wall too).
     
  7. OP
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    I have no problem with having weapon/magic cancels as it keeps the difficulty factor as you said. However, my main concern is the fact that having such buff is 100% dependent on randomness and there is literally nothing people could do to counteract it. And depending how lucky you are for that specific boss, you might either get little cancels or get cancelled every. single. time (COUGH COUGH zak). So I just think that introducing some sort of skill element would allow people to work together as a team, thus more enjoyable experience overall.
     
  8. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    The Solution to this is to have Arch Mages on your HT runs.
    our runs are average 1.5-2hrs long
    we normall have 1 I/L mage on our runs, where she cleaves all body parts (hits over 100k each blizz)
    -also 1shots Dark Wyverns (crowd control)
    -DPM: 10m+

    2 Arch Mages +SI?= OP 200k per casts.

    runs are still under 2hrs
    but most people would prefer having "attackers" on the runs
     
  9. Hyoon
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    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

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    This in my opinion is worse than wall tapping.
    Wall tapping requires players to move away from the boss, a warrior spamming 1 skill and removing it for the whole group sounds no different from wall tapping.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. OP
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Correct. From my current understanding of crash skills, there is no set of CD per cast, making it easily spammable and would require zero skills. So I would say some sort of adjustments would be required to counter act them (ex. adding a CD per cast).

    As for what class should get the adjustment, I believe paladin's magic crash sounds like the most reasonable solution due to them not being heavily favored during bossing compared to DK's or Heroes.

    But again, these are just purely my opinion and I do not know how doable these changes are. Just throwing out ideas out here and see what everyone else thinks :p
     
  11. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    Giving paladin that skill will just make paladins mules. Right now Paladins are not really in boss runs because their range is pretty awful at HT, but making them mules is not something I would say is much better for them. A combination of both could work maybe, though.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Maybe it’s from a later version but I thought the effect from magic crash does have a cool down? Basically the skill blocked weapon cancel for 20 seconds but then the boss couldn’t be crashed again until a minute later. If 2 crashes were used back to back only the first would do anything.
     
  13. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    this is the same as "binds" in GMS
    you can bind a boss fro 20secsonds (they cant attack)
    in exchange: you cannot bind for the next 2 minutes(most parties have 2-3 binds a party) so u cant spam binds
     
  14. Lionheart
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    The crash skills aren't too terrible of an idea, considering that the skills otherwise have like zero effect on the game, and therefore aren't even picked up by anyone, usually.

    But still, supposing the mechanics did change, and then people started getting the crash skills for boss runs? It still would seem too easy, I think.

    RNG isn't the problem, especially with bosses. In the end, the pattern of the abilities they use average out, and your runs won't deviate much in time otherwise. As I understand it, you just don't like sitting there doing nothing. Honestly, I find boss runs kind of boring, and standing in one spot spamming an attack skill and using potions is something I don't find very engaging anyway. If you are really so bored, climb up the ladder at zakum, do your pals a solid, and kill some of those annoying floating mobs.
     
  15. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    I'm going to chime in here because my main on GMS was a Paladin. I'm going to advocate that Crash should work as it is described against bosses and here is why...

    Paladins LOOK like they'd be a cool class to play, except it's all deception! Intimidate is only useful on a percentage basis - as it stands, it is absolutely WORTHLESS!!! (Yes, I know KimberlyKimberly raised Intimidate's strength - which is somewhat acceptable). Then, when you hit 3rd Job, you read about Crash and think, "Wow, I'm going to be extremely valuable to a boss party!" And then you find out it only works against mobs - which is absolutely WORTHLESS!!! Neckson eventually made Intimidate percentage based and made Crash work in GMS the way it was described, but what pissed me off was that Neckson gave the Crash ability to Heroes and DKs as well! So what the hell makes Paladins so special then, eh? Heroes were supposed to keep bosses from becoming invulnerable to mages (I know, since Mages are better at AoA instead of DOT, it's a pretty worthless skill to have), and Paladins were supposed to keep bosses from becoming invulnerable to everyone else. These are areas that Neckson knew they needed to fix, but they - as they always do - didn't make very wise decisions.

    MapleLegends should take up the mantle of fixing these 3rd Job skills, too, but smarter than the way Neckson did. The Paladin Crash skill is quite nice when doing a boss run. When I played GMS when Crash worked, the cool down for Crash was such that you could have three chars using Crash at regular intervals, but there would still be a small window where the boss would cast Cancel Attack and there was no way to dispel it. An all Paladin run might make the run go faster, but are there enough Paladins on the server at the same time that can coordinate this? (I honestly don't know, it's why I'm asking). I can totally understand wanting the cool down to be lengthened so that it doesn't become abusive, but Paladins become that much more valuable to a party if they can nullify a Cancel Attack every now and then. As far as Heroes using their skill to dispel Cancel Magic, that requires an overhaul I wouldn't be prepared to answer. Nevertheless, the skill set for Paladins are exceptionally deceptive. This skill SHOULD work - otherwise, why have it? Why the hell would anyone want to dispel a bunch of mobs for their increased attack and defense skills? (Crimson Guardians is NOT enough of a reason!)
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. OP
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Hmm, obviously I also don't want these kind of skills to the point it's too easy. What I meant by skill-based means that if a person that has a better knowledge and experience of predicting how that boss will react in the future (ex. timing), they have a higher chance of nullifying that skill compared to those who do not. But I can already see striking the right balance between what is considered as skill vs random will become a challenge.

    I disagree. Due to the nature of RNG simply being all random, I've encountered a zak run where it casts weapon cancels 10+ back to back while some other times it does not cast at all. And those things sometimes simply do not average out and may cause noticeable delays on how each run takes. Sure, it does not happen all the time but it's a frustrating experience (at least for me personally) to stand there and get hit from bosses accepting the fact that there is absolutely nothing we can do but waste 30 seconds for cancels to run out.

    You seem to disagree but personally I like bossing than grinding myself - I really like the fact that I get to meet and hunt with other people and hang out instead of just training solo. But again, everybody has their own definition of having fun and I fully respect that.

    And of course, killing those floating mobs are my #1 priority during cancels ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Lionheart
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    Can't disagree with statistics. I know a tall chinese man doesn't mean the vast majority of chinese people are not shorter.

    Maybe you had ONE really bad boss run where it did like ten weapon cancels in a row? Did you ever notice the boss runs where that barely happened at all?
     
  18. ThePotatoSalad
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    Not so sure about that, arch mage attack boost speed have same effect as SI. SI can only boost bishop attack speed in mage class.
     
  19. OP
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    You are right, but I was just basing off from what I experienced so far- maybe you were luckier than I am, but I was just trying to point out that getting weapon cancel is a frustrating experience regardless of how many times it happens. Part of reason I hate it is because of its pure randomness with no theoretical ways of combating it. For example, if a party full of attackers with identical level/class/equip starts zaking at exact same time, then it is reasonable for one to think that they would finish in same (or very similar) time too. However, that is not the case in practice with sole reason being that weapon cancels are purely random, meaning outcome of who will finish first will be totally independent from skill of each players, rather more like determining winners from random dice throws.

    I also want to be clear on one thing- I am perfectly fine with the weapon cancel itself and I believe that it is in a good place. HOWEVER, I do not like the fact that there is nothing people can do for the duration of cancels, which I would love to see ways of countering them with a person's individual skills rather than its randomness.

    Thats all :)
     
  20. OP
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    The difference of bliz/meteor with booster vs SI doesn't vary by much, but I can assure you that it is still definitely faster.

    Source: I have a mage and a bucc :D
     

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