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Class balance, should warriors be viable?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    There is no way that DPM at level 155 was from just 300m gear
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Based on your calculation, no I don't think so. Your calculation shows 6.3m dpm while his hero did 6m.
    The inconsistent one is NL, where his NL did 7.5m for some reason.

    You should really post screenshots of your gears & dpms to back up your claims
     
  3. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    It's funny cus in the "common gear" section was another ~100m in gear, and not to mention "decent" top/bottom which is probably another 100m.

    I also think it's pretty unfair to compare dpm using meso spent. Weapon attack scales pretty differently in price for different equips (wep, glove, cape). It will take about 1b additional investment for maybe 5-7 watk, depending, which increases the NL dpm by about 5%. This brings the 1.3b funded NL closer in line with the 2b hero (according to Nise's graph)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. jc123
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    jc123 Brown Teddy

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    Even today, there are a lot of washed players that can tank more than 90% of the game yet we don't really see a huge dismissal for warriors in bosses.

    Can you give some examples of which bosses you think warriors will be dismissed from assuming every ranged was washed? So far I'm thinking toad and NT(nameless usually likes pinners, though! and everyone loves palys for NT!)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    The hero I mentioned got nearly to what you posted on graph.
    The NL which is mine had event ring which let him be with 25 dex base.
    Since I didn't play the NL that much at the previous event the dex base pumped up to 35 base. Anyways warrior 4dex base.
    One thing I didn't get yet is if your graph based on dummys check or while fighting a boss?
    If it's on dummys idk how NL got that low results.
    That's true and good for pallys but what about DK and Heroes
    DK invited as HB mule and heroes simply not ?
    Correct.
    Pants stats 15/4 (let's say 100m)
    Top 19/2 (60m?)
    Shoes 10/40 (100m?)
    Back then it was 6att cape(120m)

    Just to be clear I'm not in the camp that think range attackers need to be nerffed, even the opposite.
    I put it here just as a comparison I did a while ago.
     
  6. imsteven
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    imsteven Mushmom

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    That's already almost 400m excluding glove/claw. Either way, I think it's fair to say that gear is over 300m.
     
  7. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    You are correct and that's why I wrote the last message :)
     
  8. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    so the argument that 300m NL > 2b hero is inaccurate, despite hearing that statement for a month or so :)

    this is why having exact stats of items is extremely important - the amount of mesos spent doesn't mean anything if the gears are not listed
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I think the "washed" here refers to 30k HP clean with regular equips, where there is no need for HB at all.
    For example now, in PB DKs are considered as essential class in every party for their HB.
    Do you think they will retain their "essential class" status for every party if all your range have 30k hp? Or they will be "essential class" for the squad then, with their rush?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    So it changed to 700m NL >2b hero
    I'm not talking specific on night lord class and as a NL player I have no any thought or wishes they will nerffed. I think NL is the most difficult class to lvl till 155 ish
    Anyways my statement of warriors should get some tweaks is still up.
    Cause once players will be washes enough DK will have the same issue heroes have right now. As the guy mentioned before.
    But tbh I don't believe 30k range attackers will be common so nothing DK should be worried about because they always could be useful in parties which is not always like that for heroes and pallys
     
  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The assumption is that if washing is made a non-factor and damage tiers remain the same, more people will naturally choose to play the ranged/dpm classes over warriors as there would be no downside to picking the optimal damage dealer. Currently, the main downside to picking ranged classes is in their squishiness that requires heavy NX investment to HP wash. If you remove that downside, ranged classes come out on top with not just survivability and damage but with other things like mobility, party buffs, higher avoid, etc.

    Sure, some people will continue to choose warriors for personal reasons, but if you had an infinite player pool with non-HB reliant NLs/Archers and 30k hp warriors, it'd be hard to justify taking warriors over the better damage dealer to guarantee faster runs. It only takes a few players to pin, and it seems like buccs have overtaken that role already.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  12. Quintarius
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    Quintarius Orange Mushroom

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    upload_2021-2-5_12-35-34.png
    god damn I have no idea how you got 10 luk 40 dex shoes but holy shit please do tell I would love to get 40 dex shoes
     

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  13. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    He means 10dex 40wdef shoes
     
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  14. Quintarius
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    Quintarius Orange Mushroom

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    curses my dreams of 40 dex shoes are over now
     
  15. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Cleave is still really important though. I think what Nise's charts show is that warriors might sacrifice a bit of damage, for the ability to do a lot more damage in cleave scenarios. I feel like since PB is out now, people are treating it like it's the only content available. I doubt very many people will even have the gear/funding available to join runs even if the hp washing barrier is gone.
     
  16. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm not saying cleave isn't important, but there isn't nearly enough important content that involves cleave.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  17. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Disregarding PB where you need 0 cleave. How many boss now you really need a cleave to run it? You might gain a boost in dps over certain part of the boss that can be cleaved, and then lose out on single target dps on the non cleaveable parts. Which in total, may or may not be better than just a single target dps character over the whole run.

    And on the assumption that "hp washing barrier is gone", I dont see why the warriors (DKs) would be taken on optimum runs, when you can do Bishop/SE/4 ranged.
    Furthermore, Heros are already out of the conversation if you havent realise because they can provide no party buffs (cider mule??).
    If you had an infinite player pool with non-HB reliant NLs/Archers, DKs's tmr is just going to be Hero's today.
    On the gears wise, it is just a matter of time (see HT).

    I don't think the above situtation is anywhere close to happening as of now, Since a non-HB reliant NLs/Archers takes 3 years of voting (less with events and 2x vote).
    So I think the rise of non-HB reliant NLs/Archers is very possible in the future or so, it would be healthy to be aware of such problem now really.

    PS: can we stop the X00m NL verse a 2B hero discussion? It is not constructive at all, and already got a thread locked.
     
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  18. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Not sure about others, but I'm in the camp where there should be bosses that favours cleave and makes single DPM near obsolete (aka, only join for pity runs) so cleavers do not become obsolete themselves.
    Rn, the only bosses that have uses for cleaves are CWKPQ and Zak. Even HT for some reason isn't really cleave friendly (sed? or lack of cleaving spots idek) despite having multiple arms
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    HT is cleave friendly when you only have 1 cleaver, otherwise you can run into issues with mass seduce.
     
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  20. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    OOOPS I meant 10dex 4luk *** sorry hehe
     

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