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A Deeper Dive into Leech and its Adverse Effects on Holistic Balance

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Haven't seen one of these threads in awhile... :^) Anyways, is it just me or does there seem to be a lot of problems going on in this server lately? I'm sure staff/balance team is hard at work on a few of these problems, but we all know that there is only so much staff can do at once.

    This got me thinking - if there was one singular thing that staff could change about MapleLegends to cover the most ground of the list of problems, what would it be?

    If I had to take a guess, my answer would be leech.

    Let me break it down:

    HP Washing/Hyper-Washing/DKs as Mules:
    Leeching/self-leeching with its prevalence and ease has facilitated in this server completely shifting towards hyper-washing. This means that every new character that is being made is an INT mule with 300+ base INT and is slowly but surely being leeched to end-game levels.

    If leech did not exist, 300+ base INT mules would not exist, and washing would be much, much harder. Sure, some people might grind it out slowly, but that is a huge barrier for entry that I do not think most people would be willing to climb.

    A Non-Existent 2nd/3rd job:
    When was the last time you saw a 2nd or 3rd jobber in this game that wasn't hanging on a rope? Save for the few new players (lol what new players) that happen to stumble upon this server, 2nd and 3rd job is non-existent in this game. The only classes that are really viable to play without massive amounts of INT are warriors, shads, and mages. Going further, when was the last time you didn't automatically NPC any non-end-game gear? A non-existent 2nd/3rd job means that any content made for those levels is useless - items, maps, and all.

    If leech did not exist, players would be required to play through 2nd and 3rd job. This could revive utility in 60% weapon scrolls as players seek to create temporary weapons to help facilitate their grinding. Ghost towns of maps would get revisited. People would actually be spending time moving about on their characters instead of hanging on ropes to level up. Things would be a bit livelier, imo.

    New Player Experience and Player Retention:
    Taking into consideration the above, do you think that MapleLegends is all that welcoming to new players? There are other, newer servers out there that are better at catering to new players - albeit short lived - and I think that's at a detriment to all Maplestory Private servers since there is a limited supply of new players to go around. If I was a new player today and had to decide between servers, I'm not sure MapleLegends would have made the cut. Imagine being brand new to this game and not running into a single person for the first 130 levels of gameplay, or not being able to make friends you can play with until you get to bossing levels.

    If leech did not exist, I think we could finally gap that bridge between new players and end-game players since end-game players would be forced to grind out in the lower levels alongside them instead of relying on leech/self-leech. Guild recruiting would be much more organic in this way as well.

    End-Game Class Balance:
    All the complaints about class balance and having everyone reroll into NL take into account a MapleLegends with leech and a shared 2nd/3rd job 'grinding'/leeching experience. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with NLs doing the most damage, but we can all agree that their journey to the end-game should be much harder than any other class.

    If leech did not exist, NLs and other ranged classes would have to grind out the lower levels, presumably with some base INT, making their journey to the end-game much harder. Warriors, shads, mages, and such would have an easier path towards end game, thus justifying their existence slightly more.

    White Scroll/Chaos Scroll Supply Shortage:
    Now this part I'm really not sure of, but I do believe that mages have a nerfed drop rate for gachapon tickets. LeechStory has basically compounded the White Scroll/Chaos Scroll problem in that it using mages becomes one of the main ways to farm gachapon as players are inevitably forced to self-leech their INT mules through their mages. This way of normalized optimal playing has been accepted, but I think a lot of the problems also stem from our shrinking 2nd/3rd job class (in addition to our non-existent new player base).

    If leech did not exist, more players would be out there grinding characters on non-mages, thus generating more gachapon per active player. In theory, this could lead to an uptick of the supply of White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls, thus slightly alleviating the quantity demanded and lowering the cost.

    My proposed solution:
    • Nerf leech to the point it isn't so viable. We already know that the dev team has implemented code that can limit experience gained depending on character activity or not (EXP ring from Halloween 2020), so the implementation and tweaking shouldn't be too difficult or completely custom.
    • Make base INT factor into your total weapon attack by a fractional amount. This would alleviate the grinding process for those who choose to heavily HP wash (and the sweaties will still do it anyways), but there will be a bigger trade-off, and the 30k hp meta will be far less accessible, yet still attainable.
    __
    I know this is a loaded topic and I'm sure there will be a lot of good counterpoints, so I'm interested in what the community thinks. I'm saying this as someone who has leeched every character to end-game bossing levels, and looking back at it now, I kind of wish there had been a more fun path to it than just magestorying for the past two years.
     
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  2. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Even though leech is my main income because NT bosses clearly don't cut it and for half the server population it's their main source of irl income. I do agree with the overall sentiment of this post and how much more of an experience maple could be if leeching was rather limited.

    While I know you don't intend it this way but it also makes it kinda seem like "I could abuse it in the past and no longer need it now so lets change it"

    Overall I believe mages generate a bit more gachapon but less rare gachapon than other jobs grinding it out purely due to the massive amount of mobbing they do.

    Although I've seen it mentioned before, making base int factor in something such as weapon attack sounds like a great idea to make high int characters less leech dependent but still hard to grind with.
     
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  3. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Yeah this is the main counterpoint I was expecting and probably the one that always recurs during the anti-leech threads. Don’t really have a response to it, tbh. But you don’t save a sinking ship by complaining about how the ship used to run.

    My predicament is that there really is no point in having multiple end-game characters if there is not enough time to play them all.
     
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  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Give us ironman characters. SlimeCool

    Add Blessing of the Fairy to them too in some nerfed capacity(10 att on non-ironman for having a level 200 ironman, 20 att on ironman for having a level 200 main?) so we can get back to having an actual community of players at all stages of the game
     
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  5. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    I like all the idea to make things more attractive to new players, but if this get implemented I can imagine new players complaining it's unfair to them they can't create a 30k HP nl.
    Another thing is I'm not sure if everyone is really going for 300 int base in all chars. Probably you know a lot of old players and they're probably already have saved NX in some account, or they just have some crazy higher goals as any other addicted player in this server. I mean, it's still a tough process even with leech available.
    EDIT: oh and I just saw what nightz said
     
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  6. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    I agree with your leech-wash feedback loop picture, but I'm not sure if the changes proposed (1. Nerfing leeching and 2. Incorporating int into damage) will actually make 2nd/3rd job more populous. Sure it'll be more encouraging for that demographic to grind more but their end goal is still to get to 4th job. And since the time investment to fund an late-game character vastly outweighs that to level a char from 1-120, you'll still see the demographic accumulate at the top.

    To make 2nd/3rd just more populous, there needs to be an incentive for ppl to stay within this level range. On top of the two proposed changes, I also think PQs should be buffed to have certain gach-locked scrolls added into their reward pool. That way ppl new and old are encouraged to play low level characters. At least to me, the liveliness of PQs correlate to the liveliness of the server.
     
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  7. yurain
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    Well. This is a huge huge topic, touching on everything from leeching, hp washing, ws/cs, NL op(?). I won't really dump everything together because It is hard to start really.
    Each of them should have their own discussion really.

    The idea is that you want player to stay longer in the pre 4th job to sort of recreate the covid player boom, to lead to a healthier economy like it was. Instead of everyone clustering at HT level now.

    I personally I think the boat for this has sailed, majority of the now active players are stuck at end game already.
    If you make the early game "harder", it is just further incentives them to not make a new character anymore.
    For the few that wants to enjoy the early gaming content, they already doing it anyway.

    It might be better to think about how to cycle the economy among the late game players, to make them self sustaining on the ws/cs.
    Instead of relying on new players to farm gacha (ws/cs), or brute forcing them with multi mage farming.
     
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  8. Pundit
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    I agree with this but also feel like we’re too far along this path. Because of leeching 300 INT chars there are so many end-game characters with insane amount of HP that players made on the More Reasonable Wash Scale proposed here couldn’t compete with those players.

    LF> second world with no leech to start over.

    I thought about this more: What if there was a second world with no multiclient/leech and it worked like account sharing works on the regular server now? It’s reportable and bannable (only on the no multiclient/leech server). There would be no point going to that server and breaking the rule because if you want to multiclient and leech, just do it in on the main server, and you’ll get caught. Could help preserve the culture and community of legends without destroying everything that exists. If you like the multimage leech hustle, do it on server 1.
     
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  9. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    If there is a leech nerf the way i think it should be done is that the party exp formula needs to be changed.

    Right now, we have an 80:40 split. That means if a monster gives 100 exp when killed solo, it will give 80 exp to the person who killed it and 40 exp to the leecher (less any level difference penalties). The leecher getting 50% of the exp of the killer is ridiculously high.

    I propose this is changed to 90:30. This will make it so that the leecher only gets 33.33% of the exp of the killer, and will encourage actually grinding your character since you will get more exp if you are actually the one doing the killing.

    However, it will also powercreep solo grinders with HS because instead of getting 80*1.5 = 120% exp like before, they would get 90*1.5 = 145% exp.

    However, the combined exp from party grinding would still be the same because 80+40 = 90+30.


    Also, I think that multivote has contributed far more to the points listed by OP than leeching.
     
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  10. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    A lot of good responses, but I think people are missing the point. Most of my hypotheticals are with leeching completely removed, so I'm not sure how effective compromised situations would look. My main suggestion was that leech be non-existent for those afk, kind of like how they hampered the Event EXP bonus for those who were inactive and had not killed anything in awhile. If this mechanic was added to all party exp, I think it could effectively eliminate leeching from the picture. Sure, there could be some workarounds for some like foot pedal attacking, but that would mostly be utilized in a self-leeching scenario and would be too cumbersome for most that the alternative in grinding would be more ideal.

    30k HP NLs would still be viable, but the method of getting to end-game levels would be to grind with base INT instead of leeching. Since part 2 of my suggestion factors in base INT to the weapon attack formula, 300 base INT NL mules would still be able to kill mobs, albeit slowly. There is also also a trade-off factor for this - new NLs can choose to lower their base INT in the earlier stages so that their early grind is more comfortable, but since having some base INT isn't completely crippling, they can carry into end-game with some and continue MP washing into later levels. Something like rushing to 240 base INT while mp washing, then incrementally washing out to 120 base INT until level 170+ should be enough to get to 30k hp, I think. My suggestion would add a new component to the 'optimal washing' strategies by adding in a new factor of grinding time.

    The changes will definitely make 2nd and 3rd job more populous. The reason you don't see them now is because they're hanging on ropes. There is no scenario in which my suggestions would make 2nd and 3rd job less populous or evenly populous.

    The point isn't to keep players in pre-4th job longer. The point is to force players through actual game content in which character design and game balance was intended that of which leech completely obliterates. The reason why the end-game character balance discussions is skewed is that it doesn't take into consideration the holistic balance of the classes. NLs doing a shit ton of damage is a big problem if the process to take one into end game is exactly the same as all the other classes. However, if NLs have to grind out their characters to end-game with base INT and all, I think their reward for being the strongest attacker is justified.

    Absolutely. Multivoting definitely expedited in the amount of hyperwashed characters one could work on at a time, but I still do believe that leeching is the bigger culprit. If multivoting existed in a world without leech, at the very least, people would still be forced to play through this game's intended balance. Sure, hyperwashed characters would still continue to exist - and I'm sure they still would in a world without both leech and multivoting. However, multivoting is only an issue because it makes progressing up to 5 other characters the more optimal choice which is why we have this problem of a non-existent 2nd/3rd job. I don't really see an issue with allowing an individual to vote on multiple characters so long as they are still individually grinding out one character at a time. The problem comes when both multivoting and leeching are in play.

    Going further, I think multivoting encourages players to restart or switch characters more fluidly which is ultimately a good thing. If multivoting was removed, new players would be stuck with a very hard decision since they are NX starved. They wouldn't be able to freely play starter/entry level characters like Warriors or Shads because progressing on those would mean delaying progress on a larger washing project down the road.
     
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  11. zeroxlr
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    Hio! I'm a relatively new player that has been given lots of help, especially with character making and in-game decisions LOL

    My first character on this server is a beginner and other beginner types. Half a year ago I decided to play Cleric, and now I'm a Bishop and can finally leech my mules!

    But this is a lot of time invested of course...

    If Leech was nerfed, all my current hard work for my Bishop and newly made mules would be gone.

    Although I do understand the issue of leech. Since I started as a Non-Leech beginner.

    Most of the Beginner community adhere to NO LEECHING, although for the purpose of WASHING... I've committed leeching LOL

    From the stand point of a mildly seasoned Beginner, I'd be all for INT factoring into my total weapon attack! Since my INT Lord Beginner would be happy with more attack range.

    upload_2021-11-25_9-10-23.png
    • 30k hp on a Beginner needs base INT of 550 and MP washing from level 40 to 150; totaling at 5 years worth of vote cash.
    • I'd be sad since 30k hp would be even more insane if leeching was nerfed.
    • Then it'd be really impossible to get ECHO at 200, since Beginners can apparently learn ECHO lol (i'd really want to 5-6 leech my beginner to 200 some day)
     
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  12. LeonardoJF
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    i disagre some parts:
    we play a rpg, it neee to be unbalanced
    we should have more ways to get hp, ok, but not so much

    warrior got easy high hp, but need accuracy and melee, we dont have options to cleave, if we just do more hp to all jobs we will have less and less warrior..

    so..
    warrior = good hp, poor avoid/acc, low mobility

    ranger = less hp but high the other things

    you change all game mechanic = do a trash that peoples call "big bang"

    about leech, i always farmed by myself in all server i played, but if someone think is Nice pay to get exp, people that recieve mesos is thankfull
     
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  13. halfwaysleet
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    halfwaysleet Master Chronos

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    It's too late in the server's lifespan to nerf leeching since many people have benefited from it in the past 6~ years, it would be unfair for the newer players whom have just started investing in their mages.
    I feel like adding more alternatives to washing could lead to fewer players making a mage as their first class, since it would make hp washing a bit more "optional".

    One idea would be to add another upgradable ring similar to the monster book ring that people could work towards and upgrade every few levels through doing a certain number of quests / killing mobs without being in a party / completing party-quests or paying mesos to skip the quest.

    More alternatives to hp washing could get people to focus on training one character instead of self leeching.
    [​IMG]
     

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  14. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    I'm generally for removal of the leech regime, if for no reason than to shake things up. The afk check hardly stopped players leeching during that event though. If one were implemented, we'd just have leech buyers whacking a mob in the corner, circumventing all restrictions. It'd be more annoying on the players leeching their own characters (but not impossible).


    There really is no way to make leech impossible. At least not without killing party play altogether, which is not what anybody wants. In essence, leech is just a degenerate form of party play taken to an extreme. If the goal is simply to deter leech, it just has to not be the best way to get exp on a character. Even for most fully geared/non-washing characters, the rope is the fastest way to level. And if it's the fastest way to level regardless of stats, then there's no reason NOT to wash to obscene levels (at least that's the mentality I took when I made my first character).

    Vanilla 3rd job sucks, and leech provides a way to get through that content and break into 4th job. Don't read me wrong, I think providing a way around poor 3rd job content and facilitating one of this game's largest meso flows are the only positives to leech. If washing players only had more damage, then they would still leech. If leeching was also removed, then players would complain about having nowhere to level and ask for leech back. To encourage players to actively content in 3rd job, it *must* be better than leech alternatives, and it *should* be a bit closer to what leech currently gives to preserve quality of life through the 3rd job lull. This implies leech must either be nerfed to some degree, or non-leech party play must be emphasized.

    There are a few easy ways to nerf leech as it currently is. Almost all leech play is centered around the ultimate. A hard hitting, huge range, 15 mob attack is going to do that. It's well documented that I believe the ultimate holds back the rest of the design of the entire mage class, even without talking about leech. While a straight nerf/removal of ultimates would not fully remove leech, it would kill off the easiest and most accessible method of leech exp gains. A server without mage ultimates would still have other potentially viable tools to explore including: roar, air strike, hh. If we add a weakened ultimate to the list, leeching would not be strictly impossible, just impractical. To make such a change work it needs a few things at once imo (and probably more):

    1. a buffed/varied 3rd job experience for non-exploders/misters through good pqs/maps/monsters/hp:exp ratios that can't just be abused by LULMage.
    2. Buffing/redesign of the rest of the mage kit to compensate reduction in ultimate potency. Demons/ar/cl/para/big bang/slow/seal/magic damage scaling all present opportunities to do more than ult/leech bot with these classes.
    3. Introduction of another form of meso trade. The economy could easily become stagnant without buying/selling of leech. Bring something to bossing/pqs to facilitate trading of goods for meso.

    Tackling the leech menace is a big task with many moving parts. Just removing either the leech itself or the vehicles of leech would cause more harm than good, especially in a server where it is already commonplace to the playerbase. Even adding damage for base int (which may help but still sounds really jank), would not be enough to salvage the 3rd job experience. Attempting to deincetivize leech may be a difficult endeavor, but it also presents an opportunity to shake up the game as a whole.
     
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  15. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I always see this line of thinking in these threads and disagree every time. A mage/bishop investment is something that most players are going to have to make eventually to meso farm. A new player in my proposed suggestion does not need to play the game by starting with a mage and instead could be entirely self-sufficient even on an INT mule as their first character. Basically, what my suggestion does is inject established players into the same life stage as new players, thereby creating artificial 'new players'. This would create an ideal situation where established players are forced to play the game alongside new players, giving new players access to things like HS mules, buff mules, etc. A big problem with Maple Island beginners today is that 99% of the people you see are either bot testing or are alts that are just rushing through content as an INT mule. It gives new players no time to really interact with others for the first 130+ levels.

    I agree for the most parts, but I don't think the MapleLegends community really ever had a chance to tackle this problem because of the prevalence of leech.
    In a system that penalizes people from inactive play, I could see things like bishops partying with lower level attackers and splitting the map up to create a symbiotic relationship since now HS will only work on the bishop if they have another active player, thereby nullifying their EXP mules. Meta maps would shift from being leech havens to party grind centrals. Other meta maps could be explored that might better facilitate for party grinding. People might actually have to work to play the game.

    After exploring most of the maps through my cardhunting adventures, I do believe that MapleLegends has the tools for a smooth 3rd job grinding experience. There have been a ton of changes to certain maps and regions that would allow for very good 3rd job party grinding experience. The problem is that leeching is far too good and people have yet to explore alternatives (in addition to their INT mules not being grindable).

    Is there any situation in which an inactive player should continue to receive EXP?
     
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  16. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    Oh yeah sure when -ovv-ovv suggests adding INT to the weapon formula it's a good idea but when I do it I get dunked on, I see how it is

    Special shoutout to Nightz777Nightz777 btw (my post vs this post)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    (<3 u maarten)
     
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  17. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    OnionMuha

    That post was a fairly long time ago in my defense! and still is an idea that sounds great on paper but needs a lot of thought to make it work properly
     
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  18. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    I had to bust your balls lmao, I'm just glad you were able to see the light :D
     
  19. iPippy
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    Active/inactive is far too binary of a scale to be useable. It requires too much of a "perfect world where nobody abuses anything" mentality. How does such a system judge a player that takes a few too many hits to kill a mob? New players in 3rd job aren't necessarily going to be one-shotting mobs like their bishop/archmage buddy. I've personally seen some REALLY weak players like i/l at gallos that take forever to kill a mob (and this is a non-washing class). If the system doesn't mistakenly flag users "inactive cause weak", then it only serves to move leechers from the rope to futilely attacking a mob in the corner and leech remains unchanged in potency for all but those trying to solo leech 5 of their own characters (and even they could devise a workaround). If it does flag them as inactive, that only serves to cause a massive headache to real players attempting to play the game and would not be received well.

    Without a proper, working definition of what "inactive" truly means which doesnt impact real players, an inactive player should always recieve exp.

    Fwiw, I disagree with the idea as I think it sounds as jank now as it did back then, and hope there's a better implementation to discover. If it's truly the only way to get players to kill stuff on their own characters rather than depend on 4th job characters (mages), then so be it.
     

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