Modify Hero Combo: Make Panic Don't get rid of the orbs

worst class?
have a look here: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/warrior-balanced-change-thread-all.36721/

read at least half the thread, and not just the first post

 

u think its not the worse?

 

considering the fact that at both point of time share the same similarities
1) Heroes can't cleave in HT
2) Heroes are unwanted in single-target bosses
3) Heroes are still #1 in cleaving situations
4) Paladins are #1 in NT, and is just as undesirable/desirable as heroes in HT & zak, and also undesirable in cwkpq

And the only notable changes in my opinion (feel free to point out what I missed) are:
1) PB release
2) NT rewards buff
3) The only direct buffs any classes have is bucc having more skills to use in transformation

Why are heroes considered the MOST BALANCED class, and paladin considered one of the worst class one year ago, and heroes now the worst class, but paladin considered one of the best class as of now?

 

in a multi client or utility situation, Drks beat pally and hero. u can at least use it as a high lvl hb mule for NT or whichever boss.
in a cleave situation, Drks can do the same as hero, pally is of cos weaker in cleave.
in a single target situation, pally is stronger than both drk and hero.

so in the end, if u want to excel in cleave, just make a drk, since it provides extra utility.
if u want to excel in single target, just make a pally.
if u want to need a good apq mule, maybe make a hero LOL

 

While in majority the non-optimal situations, Drks do less cleave damage compared to heroes. Mainly due to zerk and weapon prices. But its negligible imo, so it wont be used as an argument point.

Regarding all the other points u stated above, its true. Drk can do everything hero do (maybe except afew dps situations on NT? and some situations against PB too but HB makes up for it) but this is also true one year ago.

So then again, why is hero considered the most balanced class one year ago? Are they really weak? Or are the bosses/content just not favorable for hero?

 

yeah ive suggested this as well, this would get hero closer to other ranged classes DPM-wise and not only that but it would make the class more interesting
tbh i think all cleave classes including shadower should be slightly buffed

 

but aint we making the judgement based on bosses/content? kek

 

if u buff hero's single dpm now, when a cleave content gets released, its gonna be op. on the other hand, if u do nothing about it, and cleave content gets released, heroes gonna be balanced.

also, if you buff hero's single dpm, it will still remain the weakest class no matter wat, as long as the contents does not change.
1) Heroes having lesser single target dpm den paladin, despite any sort of buffs applied, will still be considered weakest. Why get a hero when u can get paladin?
2) Heroes having as much single target dpm as paladins, after any sort of buffs applied, will be considered too OP, and will cause paladins to lose their class identity. Hence it will cause paladin's single target dpm to have a buff, which goes back to point 1.
3) Heroes having more single target dpm then paladin. Doubt it will ever happen lol.

Its never about the actual DPM it can dish out, but rather the differences of DPM between classes.

 

The obvious issue with what you are saying is that there's a false dichotomy here where a class can only be or not be the qualitatively weakest class.

For example, Bishop right now has completely inconsequential Pink Bean damage, why buff it at all? Even if it does get buffed its still going to have the worst damage there period. The answer is obviously there's definitionally always going to be a numerically weakest class at a given task but the quantitative gap between that class and the next worst doesn't have to be so significant.

Hero is the weakest class due to its poor single target DPM (though you can argue otherwise if you discount DK's HB utility), inferior to Paladin in single target DPM. You can buff Hero's single target and it can still be worse than Paladin at single target and substantially worse than Paladin at ele weak single target. It's not an either or, you can modulate the degree of the issue.


The argument that a buff to hero will overpower its cleave would stand, I agree with you here - if not for the fact that current Hero buff suggestions almost entirely circulate around a single target exclusive change i.e. variations on suggestions for a Panic change. Which would have absolutely 0 carry over effects to its performance in cleave.


Furthermore as you have suggested, a solution to the Hero problem is to add cleave content - the question is, is it easier to buff Hero's numbers individually or is it easier to add and balance around new cleave content? And furthermore, is having further segregation between class participation in endgame an ideal situation - where cleave classes are irrelevant outside of cleave only content and vice versa for single target? Why should endgame perpetuate a bossing scene with very little convergence between classes? Why shouldn't NLs, Corsairs, Heroes get to play together?

 

Panic does 400% dmg with cast time of 600 ms (speed 2)
Brandish does 260% x 2 with cast time of 630 ms (speed 2).

Am I getting punked here or what

 

Am I here? Considering the fact that a pure Hero attacker team that are not overleveled or underleveled, with a Bishop main/mule can clear most single target bosses (Zak, Scarlion, Verga, Nib) within reasonable timeframe, are you sure Heroes being the weakess class is solely due to low DPM? and not due to being unwanted to be recruited, due to having LOWER single target DPM?

Bishop mains feels excluded, they want to play too, instead of being replaced by mule. It is totally understandable that they want to get back in game, and having the idea that being buffed will give them the opportunity to get back in line. But if a bishop can do everything AM does (one shot mini beans, and more? i'm not that well versed in PB so do correct me if I'm wrong), by bringing bishop back to one-shotting, you are making AMs (which I assume are one-shotting mini beans) useless. If bishop is two-shotting, then there will always be AMs duo clienting a bishop, which will make bishop mains relatively the same to where they are, in terms of how favourable it is to recruit them.

Its easier to balance around current content, but it is nothing but a bandaid fix. When cleave contents get released, are u gonna revert whatever single target buffs back to the current, original form? Thats no small change.

Pretty sure the early days of 30 man PB runs contains nearly every single classes, Heroes, Paladins (with PB having holy resistance, making them one of the worst class for PB at that time), Shads were all included. Why not ask the host?
Also while we are at the idea of including classes for endgames contents, why not point out AMs are excluded from HT? Or is PB the only content worth looking at?

And also, while I don't think anyone cared, Hero's position is exactly the same as last year, yet, its considered the most balanced class. Should be something for consideration imo.

 

I'm more than happy to take a 180+ Hero on my 30 man runs, yet I haven't had more than 1 reach out. I still have 3 more flex attacker slots.

What if all this meta shitting on heroes has caused a lot of active Heroes to quit/rebirth instead of celebrating what they have and their current niche?

If someone were to invest significantly into a Hero, like any other 180+ attacker in my squad, I'm pretty confident they could run Pinkbean, maybe not 8teen men but certainly can participate in the content. Keep working on your hero and I'll see you soon.

 

The OP's suggestion is actually a huge buff though, probably way too much. The damage boost multiplier from Combo Attack is massively amplified for finishers so its not 400% it hits way higher than that

 

If NL's avengers deals as much damage as brandish, I guess thats balanced? since it does not affect their single target damage performance

 

Strawman. I never said Hero should have its single target buffed to NL's level, or even Bowmaster, Paladin etcetera. On the other hand, could Avenger get buffed slightly? Probably not because NL is already the strongest class in the game that a buff at all is unnecessary, but if it were far lower down the rung, say, the weakest class in the game, absolutely noone would see issue with Avenger getting buffed until it was at least worth using.

Case in point, Archmages/Bishop are the strongest farmers in the game by far. So why buff Paralyze, Chain Lightning, Angel Ray? Why buff their bossing capabilities when they already rule their niche - just add more farming content? The answer is obviously that everyone wants to participate in every sort of content, even if they're suboptimal to other choices, and its not remotely harmful for the game when it doesn't change the meta at all. Okay, so certain classes are sovereign at single target DPM. Doesn't automatically mean, and I'm repeating myself at this point, that the other 'worst' single target DPM classes should be so bad that they can't participate meaningfully at all.

Other examples of such changes are Piercing Arrow being buffed, other cleave/farming skills on single target DPM classes being buffed. Again, if we are ruling with your logic these buffs are nonsensical because the conclusion is to appeal to the niche of these classes and simply prioritise the content these classes perform best at. Except there's absolutely no harm in allowing classes to be competent at a greater diversity of activities, only the upside of choice.

 

Sorry, but can you clarify what you're saying here? I'll try respond but its not clear to me what your point is.

So, from what I gather what you say later down the line is exactly why such a change should be done. Heroes are unwanted but as someone else has pointed out and as you have pointed out, Heroes, Shadowers etcetera can and do still get into runs, albeit with greater difficulty. So it's not the binary of Heroes either have the same DPS and get into runs versus have lower DPS and don't, it's a situation where parties are already disadvantaged because of a class being needlessly weak at single target DPM, and on an individual level the Heroes are needlessly disadvantaged for content they are already trying to run, with slower kills and substantially lower EPM.

As you say, everyone wants to participate actively in content. Bishop has plenty of things to do in MapleLegends, more than just about any other class in that its crucial for any party content with HS + other buffs and can farm by itself as well as in a group.

Again, you're misrepresenting the point in that (the majority of) people do not seek to buff Bishop to the point that it replaces the role of Archmage in PB. I believe you're referencing this thread
https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/make-bishop-mains-alright-in-pink-bean.44096/

Where the suggestion itself is nothing to do with replacing Archmage's functionality and niche. In fact the suggestion revolves around the potential of introducing 'active' gameplay with buffing/utilities such that the Bishop has something to do rather than rebuff and be a mule the remaining hours. AM is still the DPS in this case. And thereby this also refutes your point about duo clienting AMs in that neither class would be worth or intended for muling.

So back to the original point, why not extend this courtesy of allowing more classes to play in endgame content, to Heroes? At some point damage goes from mediocre/not worth bringing to reasonable, even if its not necessarily the best.

Huh? Why would the single target changes for Hero be reverted if more meaningful cleave content is added? With these suggestions where Brandish/ACA/Enrage are totally unmodified, single target performance has absolutely zero bearing on cleave performance.

So this point is exactly why such a change should be added. Even with the fact that certain classes/party compositions are optimal, every class does end up participating due to a variety of reasons (guildmates/friends playing together, difficulty in organising perfect party composition with enough high level players to fill slots etc, people just not overly worrying about perceived minor differences in DPM etc). So this statement acknowledges that its not a black and white situation where a class that has lower DPM than the absolute ideal scenario is totally pointless and thrown to the rafters. It still can and does participate, its just needlessly gimped with a big gap in DPM that could be at the very least be alleviated.

No issue with Hero being lower single target than Paladin, NL, archers, utility classes. The question is why does it have to be THAT much lower and the answer is it doesn't have to be at all.

Why AMs are excluded from HT? Honestly, I don't know. I assume the fact that farming is such a massive and crucial part of the game means that most AM mains aren't overly bothered by not being able to meaningfully participate in a majority of the other flipside endgame. Furthermore, many people are bothered by AM being excluded also. Plenty of threads still ask for buffs to the single target Archmage skills for the exact same reason as why people ask for Hero buffs, even in spite of Archmages being the strongest class in what is often considered the most important activity and 'niche' in the game.

So why not point it out? First of all, I actually agree with you, so its not exactly a contradiction or counterargument. I'd have no issue with AM buffs to single target. But moreover, this is a thread about Hero and why we don't point it out is the same reason people don't go to climate change protests and say, 'why not point out wealth inequality/the homeless problem/such and such?' Sure, they're also problems worth discussing, except this is specifically a thread originally made to talk about this particular problem instead and trying to bring another one in is kind of just derailing.

 

My point is, Hero's single target DPM is not that low to be obsolete. Our DPMs are not that low to grief runs in general. As long paladins do more single target damage than heroes, absolutely no one will recruit heroes, unless they have spare slots or there are absolutely no paladins to contest rush utility with. Its not about the DPM, its not about the how big the difference gap is. Its about the fact that paladins must have higher single target damage compared to heroes in all bosses with no elemental weakness, due to class identity, and hence, this gap exist.

Considering 200+ base INT lords are griefing 12 man HT runs, and deals less damage compared to unwashed Heroes on single target, and yet still cleared HT, this further proves we have enough single target DPS.

I may have misunderstood the point, especially since I didn't participate pink beans myself, and making the assumption that AMs one-shot mini beans when in reality I have no idea they do or not.
There's a great difference between an action of "nice to have but it does not have much effect" and "this is necessary".

Back to the assumption, if bishop 2-shot mini beans, it falls under "nice to have", while AMs retains their status as "this is necessary".
Ideally what u want is for both class to be absolutely necessary.

While it may sound like a bad idea, it feels like this is the only suggestion that fulfils the above critera:

Apologies for my immaturity here, but do note I didn't put those words in your mouth, and its a simple comparison between NL's cleave and Hero's single target.
While it is off topic, I do feel there's a good relation here. I may be wrong, but I think high levels NLs (lvl 180+) can get similar exp as low level cleavers (lvl 135-145) in 7F. Yet for the same reason why heroes are unfavorable in bossing, NL is unfavorable in 7F.

If you want to bring BM/MM into the picture, only high levels BM/MMs are usually seen in 7F, and they do similar damage to mid-levels cleavers when they are at great efficiency. They get better cleave damage than NL due to having lower single target DPM.

Before going back to the hero topic, lets have a look at how previous buffs mages got, all while retaining class identity, yet receives little to no effect when comes to bossing.

I/L and F/P have both received lots of buffs over the past few years on both their chain lightning and paralyze, probably 2 or 3 times.
F/P's paralyze, from memory, have been buffed to almost similar single target DPM as Hero's Brandish - given similar investments in gears. This takes effect before last year Jan 2021.

With meteor, F/P does more damage than Heroes in arms, with paralyze, F/P does almost as much damage as Heroes in body.

With that said, I haven't seen F/P in any zak runs other than the ones I did with my guildmates, despite most being decently funded in low levels.
Also, despite the said buffs, you only see I/L in NT, which is exactly the same before the buffs.

On the other side of the coins, now Pink Bean has mini beans that rewards AM's strongest skill - meteor and blizzard. Guess what happened? They are A+ in the PB tier list now. Further proving my main point that changing content is better for the long term compared to band-aid fixes like improving the weaknesses of the class that directly threatens the imbalance of class identity.

So back to the original point, if mages status in bossing did not change despite the buffs, what makes u think hero will be?

The fault does not lies in Hero's dpm, but rather the end game community as a whole thinking this way. As I have emphasized, Heroes are in the exact same position one year ago, yet they are much more favourable at that time for bossing.

Why do u think HH got nerfed to 50k a line on bosses? Paladin's HH crossed the line, where HH becomes stronger than brandish in cleaving bosses like HT & Zak, hence it had to be brought down. Same will be for heroes when whatever panic buffs we got gets too close to paladin's single target blast.

You are absolutely forgetting class identity here.

And to sum up my entire point of not buffing hero's single target dpm:
1) Class Identity must be respected, especially Paladin's when you are doing Hero changes
2) If you buffed it until the point the difference between Hero's and Paladin's single target is negligible, you violate the first point.
3) If you buffed it, but yet Paladin's single target is still noticeable superior, you absolutely did nothing to solve Hero's issue of bossing favorably.

And with these 3 points in mind, the only other option is to introduce new content, such as Chaos Zakum, where both cleaves and single target are required.

 

Panic not getting rid of orb pretty much = Paladin blast
Doing 100k+ line everytime

Edit
It's also 3rd job skill , keep this in mind. Try again

 

u look to new content as the solution for heroes. however, NT part 2 favors single target and pinning. so what next for heroes? remain zeroes?