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Melee vs Ranged.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Zorele, Dec 24, 2022.

  1. OP
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    Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    Thanks for sharing. Would you mind explaining a bit more your rationale? So you'd say it's something like Pala/Buccs > Shad > MM > hero/dk?
     
  2. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    As the rat above said, it's ultimately a survival game. Even at lower hp, a smart shad can avoid getting into trouble and due to insane avoid/shifter have pretty good uptime with buffs, meaning they lose less than ranged classes getting dped every 2 seconds. An inexperienced shad is likely to die at low hp, but so is the archer. Add in smoke being an undispellable damage buff for the squad which can be also be tled and the ability to effectively help in current triple clone cleaving strats (hint: the secret is to not cleave them) and they'll do more for the run than the archer.

    I rate archer above hero/dk as hero has an atrocious rebuff time with having to attack to recharge orbs every time it's dped, and dk cannot even effectively access its damage boost. Sure hero can cleave the triplets, but they do so at similar dpm to the pally (again, elemental weakness is giga busted), while struggling on the main body and 2nd clone. If choosing to run without a magic guard mule for ress, hero gains more utility as the only other defense buff remover, but no bishop is just asking to fail runs. Hero either competes as an offensive bishop fill-in, or a weaker pally (dk need not apply).

    Archers have their fair share of problems, as they are prone to death if they don't know what they are doing or have no hp, but they do speed up the single target portions of the fight, of which there are more than "cleave" portions, and provide se, even if it will be debuffed.

    I've actually yet to see dpm values from hero's willing to facetank auf to keep orbs longer, so its slightly anecdotal and id love to be proven wrong. At the insane pot costs from doing so however, you could also afford to stopper the archer. Or the pally.

    I'd probably order overall desirability something like: pally >> bucc/sair/shad> good archer > hero/nl > archer > fp/il/bishop/dk. The order is generally associated with survivability, especially the lower tiers, with single target output as a supplementary metric. If bishop could actively join the fight without risk of instantly being vaporized, I'd consider placing it near or above hero/nl level, personally. Lacking a bit in damage, but access to 2 well-timed shields and extra ressing may cover enough seds to be worth exploring. A bishop (or hero if no sufficient bishop) and a bucc are the "required" picks if serious about clearing, though. After that pick whoever isn't going to die *too* often, with more damage reducing or removing apple costs.
     
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  3. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    Got it! This makes sense to me. I could see hero being placed near archers or higher if they face tank but the costs do seem like they'd be pretty crazy.
     
  4. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    Remmember a hero/bsp importance to dispell def up, less dpm can be a trouble on clones cause it heal alot the real auf one
     
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  5. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Mentioned, you don't even enter without a way to remove defense up. But the time saved from cleavers cleaving the clones is then lost from lack of damage on the single target portions of the fight, of which take longer than the "cleave" portions (the entire main auf and 2nd clone). The more valuable picks are all additionally able to focus fire one clone at a time (melee characters and sair) without difficulty, minimizing main body heals and further rendering cleave moot in the cleave portions.
     
  6. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    oh, sorry, i am a bit blind xD.
     
  7. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    When's the last time anyone did auf?
     
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  8. Cornwall
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    Cornwall Chronos

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    Damn, who you running with
     
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  9. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    not u thank the lord
     
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  10. Cornwall
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    Cornwall Chronos

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    Need to recheck them numbers
     
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  11. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    Why don’t u come get some coffee and show me yourself
     
  12. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    Melees being a little less desirable in the average boss content seems pretty reasonable considering the time and investment it takes to build a ranged bosser. IME the greatest assets for Warrior are self sufficiency and the ability to wash to 30k while experiencing classic gameplay.

    That being said, I may be missing some hidden strategies, but unless you are an NT pinner there does not seem to be many things to do once you reach late game as a melee when exp is no longer a priority compared to acquiring gear, achievements, chairs, adventuring, cards, sitting in FM, etc.

    Whether it be CWK exchange, hunting area bosses, hunting daily bosses, hunting event raffles, farming etcs, farming items... - Basically anything that involves any amount of hitting 1 thing, hitting spread-out things, hitting more than 3 things, range, pinning, movement, or changing channels is not well suited to characters with poor range, mobility, and single target DPM. That's not to say you can't do it, but building an "enjoy the maple world" mule to do all these things would pay for itself really quickly.

    In other words, please add Flash jump to Silvermane.
     
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  13. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I think it mostly boils down to damage being the ONE thing without alternative. As you said exp is a limited need but it also has several alternatives. From leeching to bossing (better money/exp ratio) to 7f (which the only ranged who gets gapped by a larger amount is nl). Ipippy's post offered great perspective as to why warriors aren't really superior and just more limited surviveability wise and why HP is turning out to be hard to balance around.
     
  14. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Drks need increased hyper zerk damage. They need better range on crusher/fury.







    Heroes need longer range panic/coma maybe buffed even more







    Paladins need something that makes ACB more than a glorified slash blast.



    The upcoming HP challenges are primarily going to benefit ranged classes, not melee.



    And we all need a defense rework or better defense on items REEEEE
     
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  15. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    By saying this, you're assuming no one should main a melee job. They will be temporary chars to main a ranged in the future. What's the point on this? Just because it's easier to wash? What after Challenges?

    To me, people who use this kind of argument don't seem to know new players. At least before drk/heroes/shad buffs, it was really bad to say those jobs were trash to someone dreaming about playing as drk.
     
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  16. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I think we need to put everything in a clearer perspective.

    A lot of players are under the assumption that because something has been a certain way it should be that way forever even if the changes are overall positive. In reality, every class should be a complete valid main. Just because we are used to the idea of ranged are higher damage, melee wash easier and mages are only farmers doesn't mean the game is balanced and as fun as it could be.

    Let me remind you that in vanilla prebb, buccaneers, shads, paladins are straight up TRASH and Archers were miles behind NL. In legends currently buccs and paladins are very strong, archers got an increase in damage (critrate/strafe) and so on. We already went out of our way to lessen gaps and validate classes, where and when do we draw the line? Why is it okay to stop now with the balancing and why should we accept certain classes are "not meant to be single mains".

    We need to really value what makes a good class in a game like this and why historically valuable traits have evolved to being miscellaneous at best. We need to view traits like training capabilities, party buffs and cleave as secondary importance because of all the effective alternatives these have. Dealing damage is the single most important trait and adding all the secondary traits together lacking the primary would make for a playable class at best. If you want evidence of this NL is considered the best class by many and the only thing it "does" is damage.

    There is also a decent amount of evidence to sustain which classes are problematic and underperforming in which content, but surely more is needed and would be nice if we all as a community shared more info.
     
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  17. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    Once a player spends enough time on ML, the time it takes to level a character to ~180 is insignificant compared to the time spent acquiring wealth. At some point, it will be time-efficient for a player to build an army of mules : mage for farming, archer for SE, Bucc for basically anything, NL for flexing their DPM, etc. I’ve met players who legitimately have characters that do nothing but sit in the HT cave for daily HT.

    Warriors and shads are just not as specialized in their purpose, there are very few activities where a player will think: “I could do this much more efficiently, if only I were a warrior”.

    So I’m not saying nobody “should” main a melee, in fact if someone plans to only play a single character, or only run NT2 / CWK daily, or only play for a year, or mostly play solo, or rush to lv200, it’s almost foolish to not main a melee. My point is I don’t think it’s fair to look at bossing performance as the end-all-be-all of whether or not a class is good. I do not expect my Hero to be better at bossing than a NL, because a NL is far more specialized for that purpose. That NL player in all likelihood spends most of their time farming with mages, so which char is truly their main? The class roster should be balanced around a wholistic picture of their strengths and weaknesses, including how long it takes to build them, not just how desirable they are at bosses. A person who intends to play for 1000 hours will think DK is OP, a person who plays 10000 hrs will think DK sucks

    With that in consideration, I do think melees deserve QoL changes (namely more mobility) to make them a little less tedious to play across the board. It does not make sense to me that Corsair/NL/BM is honestly better at farming a lot of area maps than Hero, while also a lot better at bossing. In this scenario, Hero fails to excel in its niche of being a quick-to-build general purpose adventurer
     
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  18. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    I think the fail point of alot of people is says "warrior bored" or "tedious" u never will be good in a job that u dont think is fun to play.

    I am pretty satisfied with my pally (more satisfied when i think i dont wasted much in gear, comparing to some others jobs)

    where nl farm better than hero?
     
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  19. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    Any area where mobility is more important than damage
     
  20. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    tell me more about some places?
    btw, i know mobility is a pain for warrior, but rush and brandish make it easy :confused:
     
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