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Ideal single target DPM ranking.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Zorele, Jan 11, 2023.

  1. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I corrected this I think it's 79%. I'm not really a math guy but this is how I assume it works. outright 40% chance to shifter 60% to get hit. Out of the 60% to get hit, you dodge 65% which ends up being 79%
     
  2. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Gurks lvl 200 shadower with 754 avoid would have a 77% chance to dodge against PB and Auf.

    87% against HT tail, 85% against JC, 70% against Toad, 68% against CB.
     
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  3. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I used around 720s for my avoid assumption and tested against ht at 250 accuracy. So I think it means my calcs are correct, it would yield roughly what you said at that level of avoid/accuracy.
     
  4. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Oh yes my values are for touch damage. For HT heads you probably want to use the formula for magic attacks unless you make it a habit to walk into heads.
     
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    I can't believe anyone would pick 90% stance over x% avoid.
     
  6. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    Same
     
  7. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    I'd prefer 70+% avoid > stance when sed is in play. I'll also take meso guard.
     
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  8. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    As much as I agree with this I'd also like to say that I'd take NLs damage 1000 times over mesoguard. The use of this extra survivability is limited to PB and Auf. Nls already do a good enough job surviving while doing a significant more amount of damage. Auf is seemingly considered a meme for everyone so I won't even mention that.
     
  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    So play an NL
     
  10. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    To be fair warriors get x% dodge chance on top of stance as they get atleast 2% even with 0 avoid. That and guardian is one of the coolest skills in the game.
     
  11. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    It's not really the point is it? I still enjoy shad more than i'd enjoy a NL. I'm just stating the fact that there can only be so much weight given to extra survivability in favor of dealing more damage.
     
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  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Seems like you want homogeneity across all classes. Shadowers have higher survivability than NLs and as such do less damage. Getting rid of their meso guard in favor of more damage would be akin to creating a melee NL class, and it would still be shit.

    I just find it odd that you'd want all the benefits of the NL class but not want to be an NL.
     
  13. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I don't want homogeneity across all classes, I stated on my original post my vision which seems somewhat similar to what you posted on your own. The only point I was trying to make is that there's a threshold of survivability you'd want and beyond that there's way less benefit to surviving compared to more damage. I'm not trying to say meso guard should be removed in favor of more damage.

    I don't know where you are getting that I want the benefits of being a NL without being one. I do think NLs should be stronger, which you can quote my original post again. That was merely a hypothetical to hammer the point that a 30k shad and a 30k NL would essentially survive the same scenarios so there's only so much value to be given to "extra survivability"
     
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    You saying things like you'd take NL damage over meso guard while playing a shadower seems pretty weird, though, doesn't it? Why continue to play Shadower when you want all the things NLs are good at and none of the things Shadowers are good at?
     
  15. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    That was only a hypothetical case. Me liking a class is a good enough reason to play it. If you're asking me if i think there's any objective reason to pick shadower besides liking it then my answer is no, which i think is the whole issue.

    I also wholeheartedly don't understand how me playing NL changes at all the issue or what is being discussed.
     
  16. -ovv
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    Survivability is the Shadower advantage, but it seems like you're dismissing their core feature in favor of damage, which already exists as a class - NLs. Asking for any type of rebalancing in likeness would be a push for homogeneity.

    I agree that Shadowers need some type of rework amongst the reshuffling after the challenge system gets implemented. Melee classes should not be doing lower dummy dpm than their ranged counterparts when dpm efficiency is clearly worse with shorter range.

    The problem is washing is so engrained in class balance at the moment that Shadowers have always been justified to be weaker due to their ease of washing and reaching survivable thresholds akin to warriors. The challenge system makes the entirety of current class balance questionable.

    I also find it weird that you put NLs close to the top of your list.
     
  17. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I understand what you mean better now. I apologize for not explaining myself better.

    I should have simply said that survivability as an advantage has very little importance. If HP washing never existed and classes had set hp limits, it would be easy to justify shad as a class but that's not the case, you can also have a 30k NL which essentially survives the same scenarios (with the exception of some crazy bullshit on sed when you don't have will which shouldn't be common). What I meant is that if you had to pick one, damage is the more desirable trait by far at the current meta and simply justifying shadower based on survivability doesn't really work.

    I agree that ranged are likely to have higher damage efficiency than melee while also having higher dummy damage and potentially more survivability, which doesn't make much sense to me. In terms of being able to produce damage, I think shads are hands down the most problematic class with no real niche to justify their performance. I actually thought heroes were just as bad but at a similar level of funding than my "perfect" shad (9.9m) heroes can do 10.6m~ brandish + 10% with panic if you decide to use that being roughly up to a 17% damage gap between heroes and shad, which sounds a bit crazy but it's the truth. As I stated before with darks receiving an update soon ill refrain from commenting on them. In fact, compared to what you described as your ideal scenario, shad would have to receive a bit north of a 30% damage buff to accomplish that.

    Also I put NLs so high because I not only wanted to be ideal, i wanted to be somewhat realistic. I don't think it would ever be accepted for NLs to not be as strong as they are. I guess i didn't have the balls for that take. Also I think there's a lot of bosses where everyone can have pretty decent damage efficiency.
     
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  18. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    instead of buff here buff there why not nerf apples then? you can probably imagine which classes benefit more from each additional wa
     
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  19. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I'm not discounting it, I'm saying it isn't enough of a perk to even the scales. And unless we're going at shad with the view that it's only a stepping stone training wheels class, survivability is only relevant under circumstances of random or mass seds. That means PB statue phase (with a bird-last approach) and Aufheben (meme content). I don't count HT as mass sed is hardly relevant and regular sed is trivially dealt with with a mule.

    And in both of the only two bosses where mass/random sed is relevant, bucc would still be better even if it only dealt as much damage as shad. Heck, it'd be better in HT too unless you had a party of multiple 200s for infinite echo, a sair or two, and no one else to benefit from SI. And what does a death really mean anyways? A marginal drop in overall dpm and a burning of a res. And what can a bucc do? Bring back that res and potentially many more with it.

    Furthermore, I'd argue shads only have high survivability in Aufheben if they're hyperwashed, and if we're acting under assumptions of hyperwashing for all classes then we shouldn't be limiting class comparisons to within their respective melee and range categories because washing is the only defining characteristic that really separates the two at present. At that point all balance is thrown out when we start getting into questions like, to borrow the words of pip, "if shad is survivable thief without damage, then why is NL a survivable thief with damage?"

    If cleaving was actually relevant, I might give that advantage over bucc slightly more weight (even though shads would still lack a real niche), but otherwise when we bring up cleaving capabilities of two very suboptimal "cleavers", what we're really talking about is who gets to be the better last resort pick when a second warrior can't be found for CWK.

    TL;DR Anywhere survivability is truly relevant, bucc is still a better pick than shad so why should shad survivability mean it should still do the same damage as a class that offers so much more?
     
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  20. akashsky
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    I'll agree to disagree on survivability. There are other benefits such as ease of gameplay, immunity to autopot shenanigans, and a more afk experience eventually enabling dual attack strategies.

    We can all cry about cleave being irrelevant but that's the fault of our meta (how we decided to play the game) and how staff has decided to balance bosses. Cleave becoming relevant is an external problem that still needs to be addressed. Shadower (at least with its original design) was a support cleave class. Buccaneer is a support single target class.

    In the end it doesn't really matter to me how much lower bucc should be, I agree with you that buccaneer dummy can be placed below shadowers and still be balanced - given iframes and demolition ignoring defense. Current buccaneer is certainly the best class in the server.

    It would just look weird to me for a support cleave class to out damage a support single target.
     

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