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Really confused about the HP thresholds

Discussion in 'Help & Advice' started by ILOVEPOMU, Mar 7, 2023.

  1. ILOVEPOMU
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    ILOVEPOMU Red Snail

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    Hi everyone. I've been playing MapleLegends in and out since 2019, and I would say I know the bare basics about how washing works, planning chars and etc.
    I've never reached late game or any bossing content, since my main is lvl 120 (I'm a old noob), so I don't really get the pros and cons of any hp goal. I also don't know how much are classes affected or limited by their hp on any given boss.

    I've been checking several guides here on how much HP should X class have to take part in content, but everyone says a different story and I'm really unmotivated to make any class other than warriors because "I can't wash enough".
    For example, on the alpha thread on hp challenges is stated that shads will have 10k hp clean by lvl 180.
    Blu explains on their guide that:
    "You only need about ~7.5k HP (after gears, before HB) by lvl ~180 to do every single boss in the game"
    "If you'd like to be a hardcore bosser that doesn't require HB for high-level situations like Nameless and Toad, I'd recommend washing to 10k+ HP."


    But even so, I see a lot of replies on the alpha thread talking about how "You shouldn't have any perspective on endgame as a shad doing hp challenges".
    How come??
    10k HP clean is easily 11,5k with HP equips, and that's only if you got the minimum guaranteed.
    At worse case scenario, that is 23k with Meso Guard (w/o HB). That's enough to do anything on PB but touch right? Do shads even need to touch PB? Are there any classes that reasonably need to hug bosses?

    I have the same issue with my bishop. It's my favorite class and I'm sad over people saying that hp challenges hp isn't enough as well. I've been mp washing since lvl 90 and started hp washing on lvl 110 or so. I feel like I shouldn't bother progressing that char anymore because otherwise I would spend all that I been saving (from not buying leech) on MW20 and Genesis only to realize later on that I'm useless since I might die on perfect frame dispel or something.
    I did the math and I will (by double washing on all lvls) reach 3,7k HP clean on lvl 170, but seems like all of that was for nothing since mages get 3,4k HP through the challenge, and that "isn't enough".

    So, yeah, maybe I don't know how to wash and there's something I've been doing wrong ig?
    But is really disheartening to keep bashing my head against the hp bottleneck over and over and not finding a way around it.
    Seems like it's always either getting MW20 at every lvl and godly int equips or voting everyday for 1+year, not playing your character and not doing any damage until late 4th (maybe both?), otherwise no endgame for you.

    Sorry for the long rant. I think mainly my concerns would be:

    • "What classes often need to hug major bosses? What classes don't need to worry about that?"
    • What are the major bosses aren't run often, so new players shouldn't stress over meeting their requirements?
    • "How much, if at all, would your class be limited by using the hp challenge system?

    Thanks for reading this mess.
     
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  2. OP
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    ILOVEPOMU
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    ILOVEPOMU Red Snail

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    Sorry for so many typos. Not a native speaker. Will fix some once I can edit it.
     
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  3. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Every class needs to wash to 30k hp not so they can survive, but rather because somebody else already has 30k hp.
     
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  4. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I think Shadower's viability lies in it's ability to have effectively 60k HP. You might be able to do all bosses with 10k, but that doesn't mean you will thrive in them. Shadowers are considered a good option in dangerous content like Pink Bean because Shadowers are the least likely class to die given they are washed. With 10k HP I'd imagine they're still pretty squishy at Bean. Might as well make a challenges NL and have the same danger of death but deal more damage. I'm nowhere near Endgame so if any endgame players wanna step in and explain this better, go ahead.

    HP washing on a Bishop is pretty sweaty imo. It should be noted that getting a T10 ring on Bishop is pretty huge since the 1000 HP is most valuable to mages. Dying on a perfect frame doesn't make ur Bishop useless by the way. You need to invest a LOT into your Bishop to avoid that so when you get hit by a perfect frame death is expected. If you just want to do 12 man HT with friends I don't think you need to worry so much. 6 man and 5 man HT runs are different though.

    If your concern is being able to fight bosses with your friends then Challenges is a great option. If your concern is running small party Pink Bean runs then you want a 30k NL with multiple perfect equips. Endgame takes a LOT of work to reach. Don't worry about your first characters never being able to reach it. Challenges is enough to have fun with friends, and if later down the road you want to become a sweat, I think then and only then should you consider getting 30k HP non-warriors.
     
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  5. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    I think you need to do your math again because a Bishop that started washing at 90 should be able to hit 10k HP by 200.

    Also there is no max or min value for challenge HP. You just get whatever the value is assigned. The reason people say it’s poor for Shadower and mages is that is trivial to just wash normally and exceed the HP amounts given by challenges: a Shadower can hit 12k HP and a mage can hit 4K HP for less than 2m NX, and it’s not difficult to go beyond those points.

    A Shadower absolutely needs to be able to tank PB touch as it’s a melee class and running any boss content with a dispel as a mage with under 4K HP is going to be frustrating.

    The Hp challenges open up a lot of doors to new players without an NX base and if it’s your only option then it’s viable and you’ll be able to play the game, but the recommendations on the alpha thread as well as my own recommendation is and always will be if you have the ability to wash, even to “medium” wash amounts, you should absolutely go with that over the challenges. The challenges are there to “save” old pre-wash meta characters and to help provide a path to play the game for new players with no infrastructure or NX base.

    If you choose to rely on challenge HP you will frequently find yourself at the mercy of Hyper Body availability which is already low right now and will only continue to be lower as more and more challenge HP characters are created that are reliant on HB. HB won’t even save a sub-4K HP mage in dispel heavy fights as well. Many forum guides are out of date for bossing requirements as the current end game bosses, Pb and Auf are incredibly punishing to low wash characters and HB availability is low (borderline non-existent in Auf).

    If you’re really concerned about inability to wash, I’d say just play the game and don’t worry about endgame requirements. 99% of players never even make it to PB, just have fun and don’t worry about what you’ll need for endgame.
     
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  6. OP
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    ILOVEPOMU
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    ILOVEPOMU Red Snail

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    That's the explanation I was looking for. Thank you!

    Thanks for the clarification! It's really helpful because I wasn't able to find this information with other players/guilds or the forums so far, so I've been going forward blindfolded >_<

    Great news! Hopefully I just miscalculated.

    Thanks for the clarification!

    Very interesting. What would you say is the reason behind that? Is it because people aren't willing to make late game HB mules, or because people who run PB/Auf are usually washed to a point where HB isn't needed?
    I have a ~100ish Drk that I like very much. In case I reach 170+ (which is unlikely, ofc), in the current meta will I be undesirable in those runs?
     
  7. abe27342
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    abe27342 Orange Mushroom

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    Your previous math may have been based on sinking fresh AP into HP.
    To be clear, the washing method that would get you 10k hp by 200 is to MP wash with your fresh AP, then reset MP into HP enough so that you don't go over the 30k MP cap. Mages convert 30 MP to 6 HP despite the UI showing significantly more MP loss. This gets pretty expensive NX-wise--on the order of 80k per level later on (5 resets to mp wash, ~20 resets converting mp to hp). But just reaching the hp challenge thresholds doesn't require much.
     
  8. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Shadowers getting only 10k is some massive BS.
     
  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Yeah they deserve at least 10.1k.
     
  10. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    Most Drk mains previously already rerolled when hitting late game due to the abysmal state of the class, and in the case of Auf she dispels every 5 seconds meaning it's incredibly difficult to keep HB up. In order to mule HB for PB, it needs to be at least level 175 which is a big ask for just a mule. This leads to just not a lot of Drks / HB mules existing, and those that do exist are being competed over by an ever increasing number of low wash characters due to hp challenges.
     
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  11. OP
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    ILOVEPOMU
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    ILOVEPOMU Red Snail

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    I was explaining the process, but I think that I made a major oopsie and so I'm just hiding the whole thing. Just ignore it.

    Thanks for replying. I read and re-read but I don't fully get what's the difference from what I'm currently doing, so I decided that the best way to explain was just to write in detail what I've been doing.

    These numbers I gave were based on a more "hands-on" approach.
    That was to level, double wash*, write down how much HP/MP I had, then compare to previous numbers**.

    *I might be using wrong terms. But I've been putting all my fresh AP into MP, then resetting it into HP, then resetting it into INT before the next level.
    So 10 resets, or 31k NX per lvl

    **I know that the amount of HP/MP gained fluctuates, and the MP gain is exponential since the INT increase over time, but I didn't think it was too significant to take that into account.

    Based on my screenshots, I had:
    LV119 - 1901 HP/19538 MP
    LV120 - 1911 HP/19652 MP (before fresh mp)
    LV120 - 1941 HP/19849 MP (after stale hp)

    So from natural+stale gains alone, 40HP/lvl, 311MP/lvl
    --> 1200HP/30lvls
    --> approx. 3,1k HP around lvl150

    But I still have to remove the 320HP I have from equips, so approx. 2,8k HP clean at lv150, compared to challenge's 2,6k

    But there's still the leftover MP once I reach 29k.
    --> 3110MP/10lvls
    --> 9330MP/30lvls

    I could reach sooner with t10 and other things, but that wouldn't really be significant right?
    So approx. 29k MP on lvl 150. From there I can start fresh hp washing and gain 6~10 HP per AP + 10~14 HP per lvl.
    On average 52 HP per lv.
    --> 1040 HP/20lvls
    --> 2600 HP/50lvls

    2,8k (lv150) +1k (+20lvls) = 3,8k (lv170)

    I was here trying to understand how could you do 20 resets per lvl.
    I think that maybe it's here what I'm not getting. If I put 1 AP into HP/MP, since they share the same AP pool, does that mean that I can keep washing forever on the same lvl as long I have the minimum mp?
    Is that what they call "infinite washing"? If so, this is very broken ngl.
    But around what lvl do you mean "later on"?
     
  12. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    if you have 520 base INT as a nl (arbitrary numbers) you will get (520/10-2) MP per fresh AP reset. 50 MP per fresh AP reset is 250 per level (5 fresh AP per level). 250 MP is convertible to 333.3 HP.

    in the example above
    5 fresh AP used from adding to MP
    21 AP from MP to HP
    5 AP from MP to LUK

    26 AP used for 333 HP

    edited for math
     
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  13. abe27342
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    abe27342 Orange Mushroom

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    Yes, if you have at least one ap in either MP or HP, you can use ap resets to do -mp+hp however many times as you want (unless you go below the minimum mp threshold). That sounds like the part that you were missing. So in your example calculations, after hitting ~30k MP around level 150, instead of using using your fresh AP on HP, you would keep MP washing and resetting the excess mp into hp. If you do this, you can gain 100+ hp per level provided you have the nx for it rather than the 52 estimate you came up with. Fartsy's post above illustrates basically the same process for an mp washing NL--the numbers will be different, but that's roughly what your washing would look like each level.

    Once you account for that and the fact that hp gains are quadratic and not constant (at ~180 or so it's more like 120-130hp per level not 100) and t10 ring which is generally accepted as part of HP, you should get numbers closer to the 10k estimate at 200.
     
  14. OP
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    ILOVEPOMU
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    ILOVEPOMU Red Snail

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    I see. I guess that sums up everything, then.

    Thanks a lot HimeHam, beegoratto, abe, and fartsy!
     
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  15. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    imo drk/hb mule will be nice for casual/non-washers on nt after challenge
     
  16. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    What do you mean by HB mules competed over by low wash characters? I don't quite follow this point.
     
  17. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    The rate at which the number of Hb mules will increase will be lower than the rate at which the number of low wash characters will increase after the introduction of hp challenges

    thus there will be more players who need hb than those who can provide it
     
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  18. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    The main limitations of HP challenges would be
    • you need HB at certain bosses
    • you *need* to cast your defensive spells, which reduces your max theoretical DPM
    • you have higher pot costs
    • you will have to try a lot harder to survive
    IMO by the time these become major points of progression, remaking your character is already not a big deal since you'd be so far into the game.

    I wouldn't worry about not having enough HP on challenges. If the entire server of HP challenge shads cannot survive 'XYZ' boss, I would wager that the HP numbers would be reworked.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2023
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  19. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    excuse me, but the idea of the challenge is be inclusive no?
     

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