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Condense some of Warrior's skills

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by MinuteFish, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. MinuteFish
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    MinuteFish Red Snail

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    1:22 AM
    CharlieM
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    They don't make alot of sense, end up being trap options for lots of newer players who aren't trawling the internet for guides on skill optimisation, are a needless tax other classes do not have, and just end up giving less options for Warrior to play around with generally compared to other classes.

    Some Numbers
    In terms of differentiation between job to job Warrior at 2nd job is pretty uncontestably the least differentiated at this level. Page and Fighter play nearly if not totally identically, and Spearman is only different in that it will use different, longer ranged weapons and be more party oriented. But since this is a relic of pre BB and it's unlikely for the staff to favorably add new gameplay changing skills this is just a moot talking point honestly. I only say this as to show why it peeves me that the skills are arranged as they are, in that Warriors only get 5 new tools to actually play around with at 2nd:
    e.g. Fighter: Mastery, Booster, Final Attack, Rage, Power Guard
    and Spearman: Mastery, Booster, Final Attack, Iron Will, Hyper Body

    whereas every other job gets at least 6:
    e.g. Hunter: Mastery, Booster, Final Attack, Power Knockback, Soul Arrow, Arrow Bomb

    and Pirate gets 8.


    Next thing I want to point out is that it doesn't even mathematically add up for Warrior to be this way. Every other job's 2nd job skill points required to max everything totals to 140 (save Pirate, which have 130 totals). This means there exists an opportunity class for every class, you must have 1 skill that is not used/ have less skill points in multiple skills

    Now Warrior if you consider the base game recommendation and design is centered around specialising in 1 weapon (this is literally stated by your NPC Dances with Balrog as you advance), would max a single weapon's tree + its other non specialised skills:

    Mastery 20 + Final Attack 30 + Booster 20 + First skill 20 (Threaten, Rage, Iron Will0 + Second skill 30 (Power Guard, Hyper Body) = 120

    So this is the only class that ironically, despite having twice the skills, has the least true build diversity in actual play. Maybe the game originally wanted you to choose between playing hybrid or investing in an integral skill like Power Guard. It is because FA is total dog bollocks that hybrid builds can exist at all. I disagree with most post BB content but the condensation of skills like Booster into 1 feel absolutely logical to me.



    My suggestion is this
    • Leave Mastery separate. This way there is still differentiation between hybrids and specialists and still some SP Reset hurdle to change over for specialists, just not a needlessly huge one
    • Fuse the Final Attack and Booster of all classes. Final Attack and Weapon Booster are fine names (you can still leave them specific to the classes of each particular job)
    • Fuse the Charges, fuse Panic/Coma, Dragon Fury/Crusher are a bit trickier because they do separate jobs but each favor a particular weapon. Still, Dragon Fury Spear is a trap option just as Polearm Crusher is. This job deeply encourages you to go hybrid for some reason, or otherwise end up doing literally half your ordinary DPS as a Polearm specialist. Maybe try something to make Dragon Fury swing as Polearm and stab as Spear and the same for Crusher

    The space for a new skill
    As aforementioned, the maths adds up that there is expected to be another skill at 2nd job for Warriors. One that maxes out at 20 such that it takes 140 to max out the branch of one specialised tree. Since Mastery takes 20 also, the new opportunity cost is that you either max mastery or max this new skill.

    What would I suggest for a new skill? Eh, new gameplay skills are not really a great idea for an oldschool Maplestory server. Really just something that improves QOL for Warriors. Other classes get Teleport, improved movement speed and other mobility enhancers, an actual Oak Barrel to hide from things, a pickpocketing ability, a knockback ability that helps you get back into attacking range, abilities that help maintain your respective resource pool (MP Eater, Soul Arrow). And multiple at a time.

    So what I suggest should ideally not change gameplay at all, be a very Warrior esque ability, not interfere with other skills, have minimal impact on the class's actual state of balance since hell, the game is nicely balanced overall (and hence be more QOL), and very importantly, not be difficult to implement. So, onto the idea:

    The skill suggestion
    Now all Warriors do get better at tanking at 2nd job, with Guard and Hyper Body. They still suck at getting health back though. Honestly something that just improves HP Recovery further would be faithful to the class identity of the Tank, while not affecting how strong the Warrior is/performs in terms of DPS and if its an Out of Combat passive, in combat whatsoever. Maybe a percentage based skill or something, or just any discrete number that's bigger than the tiny digits you see off the current recovery passives. Just superior QOL.

    Another suggestion I thought could work is passive additional defense, but I would say Improved HP Recovery may be a smoother suggestion as having more defense hinders Power Guard, even if only ever so little, and it could possibly be contentious as it directly affects combat (however slightly) so it feels the least jarring to have something that just makes the same HP Recoveries you get at 1st job (stand still and heal + sit on a ladder and heal) actually useful, rather than skills that might heal you back to full HP if you take a quick break and whip up a bowl of rice puffs and hit the bathroom at a leisurely enough pace.


    So thats it. This was a pretty long read so if you read the whole thing, I appreciate it alot, and if you didn't, heres a TL:DR (though I'd like you to read the minutiae as it contains my rationales for these suggestions);

    The Lowdown
    Fuse the majority of the Warrior skills that require maxing for each weapon type, except Mastery. Also, Warrior gets less 'real' skills than other classes, and this is felt mostly in terms of QOL. There is space to add a new QOL skill, namely Improved Improved HP Recovery. That or something else that makes the class a bit tankier and more frugal with its HP pots.

    Thanks for reading. After this overlong spiel I have other warrior suggestions to spice up gameplay but thats another post for another day.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 14
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. SaviorSword
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    SaviorSword Dark Stone Golem

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    Aiur
    9:22 AM
    SaviorSword
    Paladin
    192
    Bonfire
    Final Attack (In it's current state.) does more harm than good, and ya want to force it upon everyone?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. asdfjkliang
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    asdfjkliang Selkie Jr.

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    10:22 AM
    Mirage
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    Post isnt v62 enough. Sorry but i am pretty sure this will never be implemented
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

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    Feb 23, 2020
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    7:22 AM
    -ovv
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    If Final Attack did a >100% attack of the previous attack, I could see it being worthwhile to skill up for Heroes, especially if it could work with Panic or Coma. It could be an alternative way of generating combo charges quickly. Currently, it is a detriment to your overall DPM and is recommended to be completely skipped.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    10:22 PM
    NotCut3
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    Lets say, even if Final Attack works as what some people thinks back in pre big bang -> 250% damage that hits up to 6 monsters, at 4th job, without final attack will still deal more DPM den with final attack
     
  6. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    11:22 PM
    NoraONE
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    Sweetdreams
    While getting more skills is "fun" it actually has the inverse effect with the strength of the class.

    If you have more core skills you have to max, the longer it takes for a class to reach its power threshold. This is why buccs, despite having tons of skills, has such late scaling in 4th job. Even at 190, buccs are maxing some core skills like Snatch or Time Leap. Coming back to brawlers having 8 skills available in 2nd job, this is actually a detriment for them, since their improved max HP skill is a MUST HAVE ASAP, which makes them rely on first job skills until that is maxed.

    While in 2nd job you won't appreciate it as much, but in 4th job I do believe warriors are the most diverse (maybe not heroes). Being able to go hybrid having two sets of weapons unlocked for you. Even if you're not hybrid, choosing between 1h and 2h. The various types of 1h (fast 4 versus fast 5). The various types of 2h (fast 5 versus fast 6). The lack of skill diversity at lower levels is made up by the freedom you get in 4th job. While as all other classes, like NLs are stuck with one weapon and have an obvious "best in slot weapon".
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. OP
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    MinuteFish
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    MinuteFish Red Snail

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    CharlieM
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    Okay whew thats alot of Disagree, so I imagine there's definitely no chance of this kind of change ever occurring so that's cool. I just wanna address some of these replies though that do not make sense within the context of the suggestion

    On the contrary, this is 'forced upon everyone' in the current state of the game UNLESS you go hybrid. If you specialise in a single weapon type and don't put pointless SP into a different weapon type/1st job skills you end up having to invest in Final Attack.

    My suggestion was to add a new QOL skill such as better HP Recovery or passive weapon defense in order to match what other classes have, that is, a 140 skill point total required to max from 30 to 70 which is of course well over the number of SP you get from bridging those levels. Furthermore, since my suggestion keeps in separate masteries, there is actually a 160 SP total if you wanted to go both hybrid AND get this QOL skill together. As such are not even remotely required to max a trap skill with 30 SP such as Final Attack.

    TL:DR; this suggestion actually gives you more room to avoid taking FA in its current state. It doesn't force you to invest in useless skills to do so



    Yeah, that was kind of my bigger concern, this is something a bit more inseparable from my suggestion.
    However, the jobs still play exactly the same, it's just a convenience thing that my idea adds. Being something implemented post v62 isn't necessarily an immediate turnoff to this community as evidenced by the various non v62 updates that have been introduced into the game. But judging from the current reaction it does look like this suggestion is not v62 for the pretty vast majority of people reading.


    I appreciate that but this issue doesn't really pan out in this context. For example, you point to the freedom/diversity proffered by going hybrid compared to other weapon locked classes. This doesn't change a thing about my post anyway because my post only makes it easier to go hybrid as compared to right now.
    You say you believe warriors are the most diverse excluding heroes, so Paladin and Dark Knight. Paladin can't go hybrid without sacrificing other useful skills because of the number of charges required. You could have a charge for sword, a different charge for BW, but you couldn't have both without losses of other core skills.
    Dark Knight is required to go hybrid anyway since its 6 mob skill is swing (Polearm favoring) and its soloing/3 mob skill is stab. So there's not alot of choice here unless you are gimping yourself endgame.

    With my suggestion a Paladin hybrid that can do as well with both weapons is actually feasible now since each charge is for both weapons.

    Secondly the pressing issue of taking longer to unlock core skills. I get that, this is why there are no new core skills being unlocked in my suggestion aside from a single non combat based skill filling the SP gap at 2nd job. You don't become any stronger at all not yet having this core skill, particularly DPS wise which is the biggest concern. And if its an out of combat recovery it fills the same kind of spot that maxing booster does - just a convenience to make playing a little easier, rather than actually bolstering how strong you are.

    This doesn't apply to any 4th job but Paladin because no 4th job has any skill that would be condensed, aside from Paladin with the two Holy Charges. And actually Paladin doesn't require any new skills to bridge any SP gap if this charge was condensed because there is no SP gap in that case. Paladin requires 295 SP to max all 4th job skills if you see it necessary to max both charges. The other warrior 4th jobs require 275 SP. If these Charges were condensed Paladin would take the consistent 275 SP needed to max all skills.

    Same situation for 3rd job. No new skills needed because the maths adds up that you are taking 180 SP, substantially more SP than you need to max all your chosen weapon's skills anyway. And actually, this suggestion has the inverse of what you suggest because you get to play around with these condensed skills for both weapons earlier than as of now, in that if you were hoping to play around with those skills for your other weapon type you'd have to spend a while maxing them after you're done with your primary weapon.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    10:22 AM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    Makes me wish that neckson gave brawlers foot mastery lul
     
  9. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    HollyCrap
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    Idk why I'm disagreeing, I think it's because its tl;dr and ppl are disagreeing too.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2

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