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HP Washing Solution

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by icarian, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. icarian
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    icarian Red Snail

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    Dear MapleLegends Staff and community,
    First off a little backstory. I joined this server a few weeks ago and am absolutely loving it. This is the exact experience I remember and is the perfect old school Maplestory experience. Except for one massive problem. HP washing. Here are a list of problems that I find with it, don't worry I'll get to an easy solution. But the cons need to be outlined because I fear that people have grown to used to it and don't see how badly it effects the game.


    -Distorts economy due to insane demand for int gear. (Every class must use int gear for the majority of levels). This is because you must put a lot of points in int to have enough mp to turn to hp.

    -Majority of classes need to HP wash to be able to play high level content

    -Needs to put lots of ap points into int for the majority of the leveling which ruins the leveling experience and forces leeching.

    -To properly hp wash a character you must leeching them for almost the entirety of their
    levels because they are too weak to play. And spend over 1m nx on ap resets. This equates to over 200 days of voting. Or join the countless lpq mules.

    Here is the source for that: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/advanced-hp-wash-calculator-v0-41.16508/
    hpwash.PNG

    I hope you can see the massive problem it causes to the game, and we can now talk about how to solve it.
    Here is my stipulation. Every class by lvl ~150-160 should be able to take 1 HT magic hit. I believe that is ~7.8k dmg. With HB and a few more levels be able to tank 1 body hit ~13k dmg. WITHOUT WASHING.

    Solution: Class based rings you buy from a shop that give you ~4k hp, or whatever your class needs to be able to meet the above stipulation. I believe these should cost a lot of meso, I'd recommend 50m-100m to provide an awesome meso sink. Which would further help the economy.

    For those players have have already hp washed or are in process. This would not badly effect them. They would still be more powerful. And I believe hp washing may still be required for pink bean.

    The good things that come from this:
    -No more need to hp wash just to boss with friends.
    -Int gear is no longer required for all characters so the price drops for magicians and the rest of the gear goes up in price because people will buy str,dex,luk gear for leveling.
    -The game will go back to how we remembered maplestory. No one remembers hp washing.
    -We can actually level all classes normally by actually training on them and not leeching.

    And before you say everyone can play how they want to. That vast majority of players would like to boss at some point. Or at least have the ability to. I haven't met a single person that likes hp washing or thinks it's a good thing.

    I really hope you seriously consider this. I understand that talking about HP washing is not looked upon fondly. But just because people don't want to talk about it doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. It is the only problem I've found with this server. One ring can fix it :)

    On a personal note. Why I made this is because I desperately want to make a corsair. I want to be able to train with him and go through all the stages of the game without leeching. But I also want to join the friends I make along the journey at zak, scara, and ht. I don't want to have to wait over 200 days of daily voting and a crappy leveling experiance :(

    Thank you so much for reading this, I know it was a long wall of text haha.
    I hope you have a great day,
    Icarian
    ign: Diasho
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  2. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    Just a thought, not sure if this is even feasible. Instead of giving straight up 4k hp ring to one player, what if we make like a 400 hp ring available for purchase/via quest. Give the ring a buff that is stack-able with similar buff in a party, i.e. if 3 people in a party has the ring on, the buff gives 3x400hp equalling to 1.2k hp buff; if 6 people = 6x400hp equals 2.4k hp buff.

    Or alternatively, give a ring with +400 hp but upgradable with a hp scroll exclusive to that ring only. The scroll may cost around 100m but has the characteristics of a chaos scroll in that that hp stats has a chance to +/- 100~500 hp. Personally, I don't like this option as much
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  3. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    I don't think a single option giving 4k HP is feasible. That's too OP and imo worth more than 50~100m.

    It's also fruitless. Monsterbook rings, they come from working for it. Other items are rewards from quests or boss runs. Straight up buying an item, that feels a bit dry to me.

    An idea that i like (from discord, by Pink Bean) is quests that gives you max HP if you kill a boss for the first time. For example, Mano for 10 HP, stumpy for 15 HP, etc. It's more like an achievement than buying rings with currency, and scales nicely with your progress.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
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  4. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    Make jump quests reward 2hr+ hp buffs with amount of hp buffed mirroring the difficulty of the jump quest? Not exactly the end-all solution but may help a little
     
  5. OP
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    icarian
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    icarian Red Snail

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    PrecelPrecel I'm completely completely on board with that. Anything instead of washing/int gear etc. My main concern is dev time. Anything that can get us a few thousand hp that isn't to hard to implement would be great. Everyone just wants another option instead of hp washing. Quest, Boss Book, Item, doesn't really matter. I suggested Item just because I imagine it would be simple to do. It seems everyone does agree that it's a problem. Would be great to have a solution actively being worked on.
     
  6. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    I've talked 'bout the HP washing problem for quite a long time.
    The long time fix is, and will always be.

    Change the AP Reset cost from 3.100 NX to 1.000 NX
    Make people wait less because they have to wait for AP resets to come in.

    edit : Now I want to ask hsmule5430hsmule5430 why he disagreed. Explain yourself
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Another way to balance the class based rings if they are added is to make them expire (since apparently thats how this server balances anything it deems overpowered).

    Anyways, I do not think they will be added because people are going to complain (although silly, in my opinion) about the unfair boost its going to give to people who already washed.

    For example, if I already washed to 12k HP (alot of end game players do this btw), putting in a class ring that gives another 4k hp puts me at 16k. Add in hyper body and I'm nearly at cap HP.

    People seem to want a way to boost peoples hp who didnt wash while not boosting people's hp who did wash.

    Btw, if you really want to make a corsair without leeching and play it, you 100% can do it while hp washing. Talk to GetSmoked or me in game, and I am sure we could help you out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  8. telemachus
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    telemachus Horny Mushroom

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    hsmule5430 probably disagreed because the correct solution is to remove AP resets from the game entirely and remove dice-rolling for stats at character creation
     
  9. Lidas
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    Lidas Mixed Golem

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    We dont want to hp wash at all. We want it optional like he said.

    I think for pink bean we miss around 1500-2000 hp at level 180. So a quest at this level that give ring with this hp might be good.
     
  10. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    To be fair, I've talked much in regards to that.
    Kimmy doesn't want to provoke the already HP washers for doing a wasted effort to get more HP, so that's why HP Washing will never be removed, but it's optional.

    Yet the optional side is too abstract though, as you're still provoked to get more HP if you want to get invited for Runs.
    So what I'm going to say now, might be a bit provocative.

    I don't really care much anymore of what the price of AP Resets are, they can change in better or worse, not caring anymore as I've wasted too much NX on them.
    What I care about is the Formula given to increase MP.

    If HP Washing is hard because you have to invest much into INT, with gears or base INT....
    Why not just decrease the formula?

    Right now the formula is: lower(INT/10) ... why not move it down a notch to lower(INT/5)
    That means every 5 INT you get an extra MP per level.
    It may seem absurd, but it makes sense.

    You're improving the already HP Washers to get more out of their sweaty work, and makes the new beginners more prone to get already a 30/40 INT easily and to help them sustain a happy mapling life.

    ---- Replies to comments ---

    As I said in this post, the problem is the late HP Washers that have been washing for so long, removing / changing the Meta might provoke them... and well, they are the main population that stays in high levels / or they already have quite a bit foundation behind them ( 1000+ hours of gaming & social )

    This is something I would suggest to work with something else, like the monster book, make people grind for the extra HP, make it interesting and a sweaty work to get more HP for 'free'.

    That's too hardcore, they're kinda useful for people wrongfully putting a stat they didn't want / want to make a clean build.
    That's how HP Washing was born, as there was 'research' made that found out putting INT gains MP for more HP... all from spending real cash on the game.

    It's the nostalgic part of the game, rolling for 30 minutes to find the correct stats. Else just buy AP Resets as said above, if you want a clean perfect build.

    Yes, the main problem of touching / fixing the HP washing problem is that people already washing are going to complain / the ones washing hard are going to complain... Kinda stupid to be honest, as it's generally an improvement for them (lol)

    Yes, this is the main problem that I'm going to assume, dev-time for a single / multiple developers on a game where doing these kinds of changes is already hard as it is, might be almost impossible.
    As to that reason, I post to the idea I wrote in this comment. ( Regarding lowering INT requirement per MP gain )

    This might seem nice for you, as you joined some weeks ago... but the economy nowadays is mainly based on selling int gear, you're rich if you can produce a ton of INT scrolls / actually be a scroll god and make good equips.
    The problem here is that modifying the HP washing system might provoke a devastation of the market... which is a big no no.
     
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  11. Hyoon
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    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

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    This will not 100% work because people will most likely just make higher goals for themselves while waiting the same time.
    So their once 7k goal can be now a 12k goal since AP resets are cheaper.
    They will wait almost exactly the same time but yield higher HP is all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I think it still works, but just not to a full 100% extent. There DOES come a point where extra HP only marginally helps you on boss runs. That number is different for each boss, but say at horntail, is there really any noticeable difference between a 18k nightlord and 25k nightlord in terms of performance?

    I think you could say the same about a 6k Nightlord and a 12k Nightlord at zakum. Extra hp imo, is only really meaningful once it saves you from being 3hit KO'd. Once past that, it just helps you save a bit more on potions.
     
  13. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    As akashskyakashsky said, even if you get a bigger goal, who cares, it's your sport / hobby.

    The problem I have here is that newer players have to actually play other jobs, which they are not interested to afterwards play the class they want, and to actually enjoy their class they'll wait quite a lot ( if they're interested in bossing end game )

    If not, they can just play normally and increase their HP slowly, not incrementally but just a bit.
    But the problem stays that some classes are just too much of a glass class that they wouldn't even be able to farm at their respective maps without being rendered plushies by the mob attacks.
    The idea is to either diminish the INT to MP formula ( as said before decrease from 10 to 5 per MP ) or to buff Defense scrolls, and make Defense a more important criteria in the game ( even though this is more expensive in terms of developing )
     
  14. hsmule5430
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    hsmule5430 Slimy

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    i disagreed cus to make 3100 nx to 1000 nx is the worst thing you can do. it won't make hp wash optional like wanted, supposed and needed to be. it will make it a complete must. with 1000000 int nightlods with 10000 mages self leeching to lvl 180. its the worst thing you can do. the right solution is to remove ap resets from cash shop or make them 20,000 nx each.
     
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  15. Flare
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    Flare Orange Mushroom

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    I'd love to see something that tackles two issues at once:

    HP Washing and dead content.

    Heck, I might open a separate thread for this later.
    What I mean by "dead content" is places and/or things (such as PQs) that nobody does. For example: It breaks my heart to see absolutely NOBODY at Coke Town. Or, the fact that it's so damn difficult to find a party for PQs, namely Orbis and Magatia.

    I think it'd be great if we'll have something similar to the Monster Book Ring, but to upgrade it, you need to complete X PQ so-and-so times, or complete a questline (Like, some questline in Coke Town).
    If you outleveled the PQ, there would be some alternate way to upgrade it, similar to how there's another way to get PQ boss cards.
    And to further motivate people to actually play all that content and not just some of it, only the final upgrade would be really significant.
    (For example: The first 9 upgrades only give +1 all stats and +50 HP each, and the 10th gives +5 all stats, +1 WATT/MATT and +500 HP)

    Just throwing some food for thought out there.
     
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  16. Dulce
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    Dulce Brown Teddy

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    I agree that more people would've aimed for a different HP goal with that AP reset price. It is not this argument alone though, because someone who just finished washing for 9 months will see some new player finish the same amount of wash in 3 months now, which will feel like u wasted 6 months and all the nx spend. AP reset price was changed once before and that did not had a great reaction from the community.

    The staff already gave amazing options to get extra HP with monster book, MoN, blackfist cloak and pet HP.

    I would also like to point out that the goals you put starting this thread are incorrect for HT. It is normal to do HT runs with a DK and therefore the clean hp required is 6.3k to attack at legs+tails. If you are under this hp u can still do HT, just hide (or attack left head) at the top until leg+tail are done. I did a HT run with Snowwhite (Night Lord with 5.8k HP at that point) and he didn't die once. You are not suppose to aim for a goal where you can tank the body dmg as a range class (because you are not supposed to touch HT xd) If your goal is to do HT without DK well then u need to wash more yes, but that's why HP washing is optional.

    I would also like to point out that changing the formula for mp gained by base int is gonna screw people over who already put a certain amount of base int based on the current formula, plus making more custom formula's will cause confusion for new players who followed a non maplelegends source for HP washing guide.


    ALSO for the PQ:
    I think a solution could be bringing something that combines the knight of cygnus buff (get a character on ur account to a certain level to get attack buff on ur main on that account) + the medal donating system (highest donator every month got a medal of a town)
    A potential solution to get way more people to do PQ would be a system where u need to get a certain amount of PQ points to give a buff on ur main for a month.
    Let me give an example (numbers could be changed to make it more balanced)

    PQ points per full PQ (reward lpq and kpq more to have real nostalgia alive)
    LPQ = 5
    KPQ = 3
    Others = 2

    If you get 60points in the month may, then u will have a buff that last the whole month may
    This buff could be like 3atk 3all stats 500hp and 5accuracy. Once June start your buff will disappear and u need to get 60points for the max buff again. This will be Account base, so for me i would need to make a PQ mule on the account where Dulce is to get the buff. 40points could be like 2atk 2all stat 200hp 2acc, 20points; 1,1,200,1

    This will make all the high level players do pq's and not just for a certain amount of time. They will do this monthly for the buff. This is just a concept, havent really thought of exact implementation yet. Feel free to comment on how to improve PQ's :)
     
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  17. boldaslove
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    boldaslove Dark Stone Golem

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    Rings you get that disappear after you leave the boss room?
    Rings a part of an entry quest to get into a boss room?
    Rings that activate once you enter select maps?
    Rings.. bla bla bla? It's a cool idea. Not sure how it would work.
     
  18. Lidas
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    Lidas Mixed Golem

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    not good. we dont want instant hp buff..
     
  19. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I don't think there needs to be a major change, but some more minor ones with minor drawbacks would be nice.

    Having secondary stats give +hp on level-ups would be interesting. str for gunslingers/bowman/bandits, dex for warriors/brawlers/sins/bandits, and luk for mages. Say for every 20 on a character they get 1 more hp. Int would still be much more efficient but people that aren't washing could still get 5%-20% more hp on average depending on level, and not have to buy any AP resets to do it. It also encourages players to use gear that isn't just dexless/strless and whatnot.

    It wouldn't be much help to high level players who didn't wash though. And mega-int-lords wouldn't be able to do it because their IQ is just too high from investing in int all day.

    Laughs in dex brawler
     
  20. Precel
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    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

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    Interesting thought, but medal system is from later versions and likely unable to be implemented.

    Plus PQ points system may be easily abusable by having mules and just spamming specific PQ :(
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019

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