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Buff marksmen

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Selquin, Feb 2, 2020.

How bad MMs?

  1. MMs are balanced and do not need a buff

    25 vote(s)
    20.5%
  2. MMs are under powered, but not to the degree where significant buffs are necessary

    35 vote(s)
    28.7%
  3. MMs are bad enough to the point where significant buffs are necessary

    62 vote(s)
    50.8%
  1. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    May 28, 2018
    5:07 AM
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    Pasta
    In this thread I will attempt to persuade you that MM is the class that most obviously needs a buff. Even for buccs, sairs, and pre-buff shadowers you can argue that they satisfy some sort of niche that justifies their existence. Now you might wonder, why is it then that shadowers got buffed before MMs? The reason is because shadowers were still a popular class even before the buff, and there were enough shadower players for people to understand their weaknesses and voice their complaints so that the GMs/balance team could understand the problem and implement the long waited 4th hit of assasinate. However MM is such a dead class that there is almost no one left to complain their woes. The lack of discussion about this class leads some of us to certain misunderstandings and prevents us from solving what I consider to be an extremely obvious fault in our class balance. Thus I hope to provide some information about the MM/BM balance and make some arguments that will make it obvious that marksmen should be buffed.

    MM is a garbage class. Not necessarily because they are bad in a vacuum, but because for almost all practical purposes they are completely and hilariously outclassed by BMs. The 2 classic refutes to my claim are the following,

    1. MMs can mob better with piercing arrow and thus can train slightly faster

    I will begin by addressing the first challenge. For archers, the most popular and efficient way to train involves bossing with your single target attack.
    The two areas that archers excel the most at is HT and cwkpq, the former due to the fact that SE is virtually mandatory on HT runs and the latter due to cwkpq runs needing an archer that can clear the archer room and puppet control the pirate boss. With cwkpq and HT being the most lucrative activities that an attacker character can partake in, it would not be unreasonable to claim HT+cwkpq to be the most important. Yet piercing arrow is utterly useless for both cwkpq and HT.
    Aside from HT and cwkpq, other ways archers gain exp involve zakum, BF, anego, bga, krexel, NT, and of course the accursed shaolin grind. The only place where piercing arrow can be remotely useful is during zakum arms and shaolin grinding. Zakum arms only last for a small fraction of the total runtime, and zakum itself is a terrible boss in terms of both money and experience. While shaolin grinding does give significant exp gains, there is virtually no monetary gain and most people prefer boss instead.
    For most of the popular and efficient activities that archers partake in, the ability for an archer to cleave is largely irrelevant in the current meta.

    2. Because of snipe MMs are less dependent on gear and are thus stronger in the early game.

    This is the more substantial argument to tackle. While it is without a doubt true that MM's start off stronger than BMs, I will argue in this section that the "window" in where MMs are stronger is much smaller than most might guess, and that a massive gap opens between BMs and MMs once you move towards the endgame. Let us begin by considering the dummy dpm of 2 low level archers, say around level 140(which is about the lowest level you can do any bossing without being a mule).

    *calculation courtesy of AlyoshaAlyosha

    Level 140 Marksman - 120 att shiner cross / 3 att cape / 12 att gloves / 15 att potion 700 dex / 110 str / 150 attack attack range -> 2206-3945 average of range -> 3075 Strafe averages 1064% of range for damage 1064% of 3075 -> 32725 damage on average 6 Strafe / 1 Snipe total damage -> 196k + 200k -> 396k damage in 5.04 seconds 4.7mil DPM

    Level 140 Bowmaster - 117 att shiner bow / 3 att cape / 12 att gloves / 15 att potion 700 dex / 110 str / 147 attack attack range -> 2050-3660 average of range -> 2855 Hurricane averages 256% of range for damage 256% of 2855 -> 7308 average per line of hurricane Hurricane casts 500 times per minute 3.65mil dpm

    So indeed with the minimum stats required to entertain the possibility of bossing, marksmen do turn out to be stronger at this stage. So let us now ask the question, at what point to BMs overtake MMs? Let us consider 2 level 165 archers, which is about the minimum level you can start being useful at HT. Assuming both archers are base 60 str, with a reasonable scrolled scar/zak helm + htp + mw20 they will end up with roughly ~920 dex. For this amount of dex, the amount of attack necessary for MMs and BMs to have equal dummy dpm is around ~175. Let us assume the following equipment,
    120atk bow
    5atk cape
    14atk glove
    2 atk sock

    This would put us at 141atk before an attack pot. On HT buff (+30atk) or stew (40atk) the two archers would be about equal. Thus we can estimate that the turnover point is around 165-170 depending on proficiency of gear and atk buffs used.

    In my opinion, this equilibrium point happens way too early. Basically as soon as you become a relevant attacker at HT, there is no longer any merit in being a MM. Although MMs have a small window ~140-165 where they are stronger, their dpm isn't really relevant during this stage anyways.

    Now let us take a look at how large the gap is in the endgame. If we assume,
    -140/143atk bow
    -15 atk cape
    -21 atk glove
    - 1.2k dex
    - HT buff
    - echo

    If you crunch the numbers for both BMs and MMs, it works out that MMs do roughly 85% of BM's dpm.

    Up to this point, it doesn't actually look that bad yet. Although the window of MM superiority is fairly small, it can be widened by adding SI and taking washing shenanigans into account. The lategame discrepancy can even be lowered down to ~95% if you assume SI. However we have to remember that we are only considering ideal dummy dpm's here, there are a variety of other factors that further knock MM down in pragmatic situations.

    Here is a list of some of these things,

    -MM is harder than BM. To maximize their dpm MMs need to count their snipes and watch the snipe cd so that they can use snipe as soon as its off cd, while BMs need only hold down a single button. Practically speaking you will not be able to use snipe at perfect timings in real bossing situations where you are getting knocked around, even on near dummy situations such as a puppeted pirate in cwkpq it is a lot easier to hold down hurricane for 25min compared to maintaining a constant 6 strafe/1 snipe.
    -MMs cannot buffer momentum cancels out of their attacks(if you are interested read about it here https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...um-cancels-an-obscure-piece-of-bm-tech.26358/). Since archers lack shifter/high avoid/stance they have to deal with getting knocked around a lot, buffering inputs out of hurricane is something only BMs can do to reduce the amount of time they waste having to reposition. This also means MMs are unable to do the top right platform rightwards momentum cancel strat in HT as well as the bottem left platform rope grab buffer strat.
    -Snipe will occasionally bug and go on cd forever, if this happens on a boss run you will get whited by a shadower
    -Blind is useless garbage while hamstring is actually useful. This has been brought up in another thread. Hamstring is actually extremely useful for several bosses (area bosses, bga, nameless, and most importantly cwkpq pirate), but blind doesnt proc on bosses and is basically completely useless.
    -MMs do not have access to the hurricane-tab out technique, which is immensely useful when you are trying to multi-client while bossing.
    -MMs do not have access to concentrate( +26atk for 3min with 4min cd), which at its very worst (that is when you use coke pill on the 1min of cd) averages to a free 23atk buff. If you are willing to go with a slightly more pricey option, you can use 1 stopper on the 1 min cd, which will average out to 34.5 atk buff (this is a far cheap option than using stew for +40atk).

    Compared to BMs, MM is a difficult and unrewarding class with both inferior utility and in most relevant cases damage as well. If we do actually by some miracle get a MM buff in the future, here are a couple of proposed buffs that I have heard,
    -Make snipe go through weapon cancel like the legendary Heaven's Hammer
    -Make blind work on bosses in some meaningful way
    -Buff piercing arrow to the point where it can be used to cleave effectively at cwkpq and HT

    My general feeling is that most people would more or less agree than MM is under powered, its more of a question of how bad the situation is. I am interested in seeing the response to this thread to see if this sentiment really is true.
     
    • Agree Agree x 17
    • Like Like x 2
  2. postcard
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    postcard Selkie Jr.

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    4:07 AM
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    am i wrong in assuming that some people go marksman over bowmaster though because you can wash it more while maintaining some amount of damage due to snipe?

    not entirely relevant, but just wondering

    i do agree that mm could use more love though!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  3. OP
    OP
    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    You are certainly correct here to mention that MMs have this niche, which is why I mentioned that the MM superiority window can be widened by washing shenanegins. I would however argue that the type of person who is dedicated and patient enough to significantly wash an archer is probably also the type of person who values the endgame more than the ~140-170 window, in which case BM is the superior choice. If you take a look at several players who are currently scheming to prepare their 15k + hp archers, they are mostly BMs not MMs.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I decided to try out the math for non-linear attack scaling when it comes to damage calculations. But personally I have no real idea on how it's coded or if it's viable in the slightest to change how damage is calculated for a single class.

    It would be by shifting the range calculations in the attack portion by putting them to a power:
    (Primary Stat + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100
    -> (Weapon Attack^1.2) / (100^1.22)

    These are the average damages expected in 5.04 seconds before and after the suggestion for different periods of a Marksman's life.

    Very slight nerf to early game Marksmen:
    700 dex/150 att
    Old: 394k
    New: 392k

    Minor buff to mid game Marksmen:
    900 dex/183 att
    Old: 554k
    New: 564k

    Large buff to end game Marksmen:
    1200 dex/228.5 att
    Old: 785k
    New: 829k

    End game, same stats but with SI as well:
    Old: 882k
    New: 934k

    For the purpose of comparison, a BM with the same gear:
    BM endgame: 919k

    Same godly gear, but with an apple:
    1200 dex / 310 att
    Old: 993k
    New: 1.11mil

    Apple + SI:
    Old: 1.126mil
    New: 1.26mil

    Bowmaster comparison with apple:
    1.25mil

    Probably a stranger suggestion but it would put Marksmen in line with Bowmasters so long as they have Speed Infusion, but would still likely fall short given situations that can't be precisely timed. It also has the added benefit of not significantly changing the Marksman's damage early or mid game, it would be a straight buff to their end game when they finally fall off in the damage charts.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  5. Lidas
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    Lidas Mixed Golem

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    So up to level 150 MM is better. And after this BM .
    I dont see the point to compare those.
    Archers have balance problem with mobility and mobs in my opinion compare to other classes. Both those kind of fixed with freeze and piercing skills for mm.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Freeze and Pierce are not meaningful advantages for MMs during 4th job. The most valuable mobbing tool archers have access to is Dragon's Breath, which is available to both BMs and MMs, and BMs have hamstring which can keep most mobs out of range to prevent them from getting hit anyways. Also, AE spamming is better than Pierce in most of the endgame mobbing you'll be doing - Shaolin, NTPQ, getting hearts from Crimson Guardians, and getting elixir components in Dragon's Tomb II. Pierce could be useful if you put off ToT quests until very late, but that's a very small window of timeframe.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Lidas
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    Lidas Mixed Golem

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    im not saying mm doest need the buff to mobility and mobing like bm. but you cant say freeze is useless. you freeze the target and move away. with the fact that archer dont have mobility its huge
    piercing arrow give mm large boost in mob damage. in the best mob maps(i htink its shaolin rn) this skill is useful, and will give them good exp rate compare to bm.
    i dont know if you play archer, but dragon breath isn't very useful. normaly you want to push target that are too close to you and this skill not doing that.
    as for hamstring i dont have this skill yet but i think freeze might be better (stop the target compare to slowing it + freeze is active/passive skill).

    i just see you say in other post 7th shaolin is bad for mm. can you expain why the combination of freeze + pierce doest work there?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    If you're duoing 7F, you're generally splitting the map between left and right, and the map is small enough that there aren't many giants on the ground to hit that way. Pierce does not allow you to hit both giants and fishes at the same time, so spamming AE on a shelf ends up being much better than Pierce (because then you can hit both fishes and giants).

    This is also why freeze doesn't end up being useful for MM. Regardless of whether I'm soloing Forest of Towers or duoing 7F, I end up using Arrow Eruption 99% of the time, so I'm in melee range of things anyways. In fact, freeze is an active hinderance to my solo grinding because I need to gather up mobs as I go, and freeze prevents them from following me for a while.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Oradious
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    Oradious Mr. Anchor

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    You can't freeze bosses
     
  10. oohyoo
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    oohyoo Horny Mushroom

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  11. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I would be more for MM's taking the niche of a range cleave. Here's what I would suggest.

    1) Change piercing arrow so that when you use it you are locked into 1 position and cannot move while charging.
    2) While charging piercing arrow, your character has a stance like effect, meaning you can't be knocked back while charging.
    3) remove the minimum range on piercing arrow.

    This lets marksman cleave in bossing situations, though to effectively do it in something like cwkpq, you would probably need an insane amount of HP so you arn't burning infinity potions.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Creative Creative x 3
  12. OP
    OP
    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    The reason why MMs and BMs are compared is because these are the only 2 classes with SE, which is a niche that will always be relevant.
    I would say its more like, both archers are effectively equal up to 140, MM is slightly stronger from 140~165 (a level range where you will be weak either way), and BM is superior for all the levels after that.
    As for mobility issues and freeze, I would argue that for almost all meta activities freeze is completely useless. If a couple people want to engage in some niche non-meta activities that is perfectly fine, and perhaps you might find freeze useful in some of those situations. However we should not be balancing around a couple of outliers willingly taking inefficient routes, but rather balancing around the meta activities which affect most players. As of right now freeze is useless for HT, cwkpq, NT, area bosses, bga, zak, and from what I understand it is pretty underwhelming in shaolin as well.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC7DoKLP_vk&t=2s
    i think is pretty balanced? just need si. As you can see Bowmaster just beat mm in few seconds difference

    Also, you have freeze and piercing aoe stuff although not useful in boss meta but still useful somewhere.

    Also stronger in early bossing and have cheap scrolls. So bm should be superior end game don't know whats the problem hehe.

    Anyways if you buff hero's enrage i'll agree with your suggestion.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
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    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    That's a difference of 106 seconds dearie, not a few seconds.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  15. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    Also another key difference between the two classes is how little effort it is to area boss as a bowmaster. Most bowmasters just hurricane and click out of their client and glance every few seconds to check they’re alive (or in maps like anego and nameless where as long as your partner doesn’t screw you, you can literally just have to pot up to full mana every time you run out). Marksman have to constantly strafe a few times and then snipe which is a lot more effort for less reward. (also not even sure if the clicking out of client thing for hurricane is an intended feature but most bms do it anyways soooo) Anyways pls buff bms they need it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. thugric
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    thugric Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    i think im gonna feel bad for the dev who will be applying any these suggested buffs
     
  17. ngrman
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    ngrman Stone Golem

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    In that video, snipe is a 4sec cd and 125 % strafe, bowmaster unchanged on that server with much better gear.
    So the gap is actually bigger in legends with 110% strafe, and 50% crit for both.

     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    but no remorse for those who toiled away on their marksman
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    I think letting either Blind work on bosses or letting Snipe go through weapon defense should be really simple, since Blind likely just need to change a flag somewhere and Snipe is supposed to go through weapon defense before ML specifically changed it to not be able to. Changing Piercing would be a lot more complicated and requires a lot more rebalancing, especially since Piercing damage increases with every subsequent target hit, meaning it's very hard to make 3-4 target Piercing decent without making 6 target Piercing (which I'm pretty sure will never happen in a bossing situation) overpowered, or changing how the skill works on a more fundamental level.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    Maybe if we buff strafe again? Like To 120 or 125..
    Edit:
    I would love to see snipe hitting through weapon cancel tho...
     

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