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Petition: Alternate Weapon/Magic Cancels

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Tango, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Yea I'm not a fan of it either. I was just pointing out my observations from the GMS video that was posted above :p

    Problem here is that the advantage of incorporating a mage for these single target bosses isn't that rewarding (if they were comparable lvl/gear). Assuming you switch out a warrior that does like 5m dpm for a mage that does 3m dpm (single target). Let's say there are 20 weapon cancels that last 30 seconds each and the run lasted 30 minutes.

    The warrior would have lost out on 5*1 = 5m dpm (due to cancel). But would've been able to do 30-(20*0.5)*5m dpm =100m damage to the boss overall.
    The mage with (lets say no magic cancels at all) would be doing 30*3m dpm = 90m damage to the boss overall.

    Now factor in that weapon and magic cancel should theoretically have equal chance to cast. The mage starts losing out even harder. THAT SAID, if you had an option of taking a 14x warrior or a 18x or 19x mage, you should take the mage :p

    That would then make heroes a "must take" class for their supportive ability. When their class design is quite damage oriented. A class that can do all that, would undeniably become the top class and break any meta that exists.
     
  2. AioriaX
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    Inb4 Heroes become armor-crash-mules to perma-dispel-cancels.... oh wait multiclienting is banned.... oh wait I'll just buy more computers. xD
     
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  3. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Its paladins who had the "total crash skill" not heroes, it would be cool to see total crash implemented
     
  4. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    How come people still think mages are awful single target? :rolleyes:

    It's mediocre but not meme-worthy like bishop single target. If you have like 20 levels on your comrades/some good gear you'll probably be able to compete with DK/Hero single target DPM, which isn't too bad considering the ease of training/access to leech selling. Translate characters to efficient hours played and I don't think mages would do as badly as people expect.

    People probably just conflate mage single target DPM to bishop DPM because they've only ever seen a bishop fighting. :whistling:
     
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  5. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Another reason mage single target dpm is often underestimated is because mages tend to scale harder with levels compared to other classes. For all of the non-mage classes, their dpm scales linearly with their total main stat. However the formula for mage damage is more complicated, and in additional to a term linear in their magic(int + matk), there is also a term that scales quadratic ally with magic ( ~magic^2). Because of this mages get a slightly bigger "boost" from being high level compared to other classes. The theory suggests that a lvl 200 FP mage with (near) perf gear can get upwards of ~7m dpm on a dummy(with SI), which is comparable to pre-buff shadowers.
     
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  6. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    plz create a skilled way to cancel the weapon cancel ;D. like hitting something that spawns breaking the crystal etc...
     
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  7. AioriaX
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    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

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    LF>Wall tap kekw
     
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  8. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    About removing the cancels. I remeber dispell used to remove cancels as well (bishop was even mreo necesary to zakum) but that was changed later on. All the ways to exploit a way to remove cancels also have been fixed so I'm not sure how much do GMs like the idea of adding a skill that remove cancels.
    Post big bang (not sure if inmediatly or within a couple of patches) all warriors specific crashes were changed into a general crash that worked this way: 1 minute cooldown at all levels, atl max level has a 100% chance of removing all bugs from a mob and prevents the mob to recast any buff for 20 seconds. A bit too good for the current mapelstory.
    Alternating cancels I'm not sure is that the right fix either tho since cancels happen way too often anyways.
     
  9. OP
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    Tango
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    Tango Horny Mushroom

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    There would always be a work-around for something like that, such as bringing mules for the sole purpose of breaking it. It'll kinda ruins the integrity of the game. May not work, but it's not a bad suggestion. :D
     
  10. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    Just make snipe hit through weap and magic cancel :)
     
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  11. cakesogood
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    cakesogood Windraider

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    need do jq inside of ht stomach. then kill a mini leviathan inside him when reach the end
     
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  12. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    The way server selects next monster skills are GMS-like actually.
    Every few seconds or so, client sends a packet requesting a monster to choose a next skill. Server receives that packet, retrieves a list of all available skills, and randomly selects a skill to use with equal chance. After, it checks whether or not that skill is on CD or has already been buffed. Then after ensuring that skill can be used, server will send the response packet to use that skill on the client. This is how it is done in Legends as well as back in GMS. Altering this would mean server would need to use weighted chance instead of all being equal.
     
  13. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    That is already how it works atm. Server will not allow weapon and magic cancels to be used at the same time. If the next skill selected is magic cancel while weapon cancel is currently buffed, it simply wont send the packet to cast another cancel.
     
  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    He means that he wants them to share a cooldown, so that the monster can't use the skill and force it to go on cooldown.

    Currently, the monster still uses the skill, its just that the effect is not applied.
     
  15. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    Please do something about the Scar 15 weapon cancels in a row on 3rd body.
     
  16. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    But thats not how monster CD works... Neckson provided cd for each different skills for a reason, let alone sharing them would defeat its entire purpose.
    Nope. Client sends 0 data about what skills to use. It simply sends a packet requesting it. Also, server will not allow a skill to be used at all if it is on CD or already buffed.
    Ultimately, it's just an RNG. Unless we decide to weigh the chances for next skill, situations like that are bound to happen.
     
  17. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    This is my theory, it may or may not be correct, but it does explain my in game observations.
    Situation:
    Scarlion is in weapon cancel, magic cancel is off cooldown.

    Action:
    Scarlion uses magic cancel.

    Effect:
    Magic cancel is not applied because weapon cancel is in effect, but the magic cancel still goes on cooldown.

    Now, because magic cancel is on cooldown, weapon cancel will come off cooldown first. So it is very likely that the next cancel will be a weapon cancel instead of a magic cancel.

    This is why I believe that scarlion gives us long series of magic / weapon cancels.

    Now, this is just a theory, if it is in fact not correct as you state, there must be something else going on to explain the consistent series of magic / weapon cancels. If you have ever fought scarlion, you would know that it is much more likely for the boss to use the same cancel as before, rather than changing cancels.
     
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  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Would balance workaround be possible where certain types of skills bypass Weapon Cancel? This would give you guys some neat new factors to play around with balancing various classes. I know that request for MM to bypass Weapon Cancel is a common one, but what if other skills were able to bypass Weapon Cancel by .5 or .25x damage? If feasible, I think that would be a new niche buff while also giving weapon cancel a strategic purpose instead of just being a nuisance.
     
  19. echung379
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    echung379 Brown Teddy

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    This makes sense to me and I suspect something like this is happening. From my personal experience, I frequently see scar cast a magic cancel when weapon cancel has like 5 seconds left. And thus the magic cancel doesn't go through, but the magic cancel cooldown still kicks in. So the next cancel has to be a weapon cancel. Repeat x10. Usually resets once the body dies.

    It's hard to believe it's just truly 50-50 RNG when there's frequently 10+ of the same cancels in a row. And it seems from other people's posts that it's not just me. For every 10 scar runs, at least 2-3 of the runs I get 10+ of the same cancels in a row. The chance of getting 10 of the same cancel in a row is 0.0009765625.
     
  20. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    I think many of us can corroborate Akash in that magic cancel is in fact, at least to us players, visually used during physical cancels but its effect is not applied.
     

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