How long are you allowed to hold an HT channel?

With tensions high in these kinds of situations, I think a response of any kind should be warranted. There is already supposed to be a built-in mechanism for expeditions such as zak, nt, and ht that do not start the fight right away (summon it in x minutes or get kicked out). These 2 cases represent 2 extremes of channel holding, where you can determine "intent to run" for the groups. Case 1 had no intent to run and simply wished to hold up a map. Case 2 had a clear intent to run, and needed to be approached the way they did for fear of losing their map (too little, too late it seems). Removing a squad that is in the process of starting a run and following all rules as written just leaves a poor taste, and is not at all in the legends spirit imo.

But lets muddy up the waters a bit more: is case 1 even wrong? What makes holding an expedition map different than an ulu or skeles map? People want to use those maps just the same but there is nothing wrong with holding them all day while obviously not directly using them. People will hold maps so they can ensure they have one when they want them, give the map to friends, or sell the map to others. I'd like to know what is creating the sudden knee-jerk reactions to raid maps, while grinding maps are relatively unpoliced. Is it just frequency of people complaining? Or an inability of users to "hold" mapowner as much as they are used to with leech maps?

 

I honestly think that adding a few more channels will help alleviate the sniping/map holding problems.

 

just find a non meta boss to train on guys

 

To be fair, in Situation 2 which I was around for, the map was not a free map as the runners were aware of the ongoing runs (because people in both runs were friends and were talking to each other), i.e. they sniped the channel (which I think is fair game), but they left 3 runners behind (a bishop, archer, and an NL) who were telling us what they were doing by holding the map inside the HT map was fair game. I'm not convinced that leaving 3 people behind in a 10 person run was unintentional.

I do agree though that it was in the gray zone of what is allowed, which I'm sure will be formally addressed based on what Kimmy wrote.

 

It would be wrong to reduce the situation to isolated incidents of griefing and trivialize the situation as "just people being toxic". There is real tangible incentive for groups to hold maps for reasons other than just griefing. If we are at a point where groups are not allowed to idle inside the HT map either before HT is spawned or after HT is killed, then it becomes difficult to guarantee access to the channel after you leave. If this is the case then you can either cry about your channel getting sniped or you can take matters into your own hands and hold an additional map beforehand. The same applies for sniping maps, if you are in a situation where your entire squad is unable to find a free HT channel, there is real incentive to attempt to snipe another channel. This is an infrastructure problem that came about as a result of a spike in the player base, please do not use the community as a scapegoat for the limitations of the game.

 

May I suggest a few ways to tackle this situation? - these may possibly answer TS' question on how long you COULD ACTUALLY hold a HT channel.

1. Reset a timer upon Horntail death to 5 minutes or less so that after the last part of Horntail dies, instead of having the remaining timer run down (ie. 30minutes or more), a new timer takes over for which you're only allowed 3-5 minutes to loot all the available items and scroll/chaos your HTP whatsoever before getting automatically expelled from the cave. In this way, GMs do not have to intervene and randomly expel runners out of the cave or ban AFK-ers post-HT death - which IMO just creates unnecessary drama between players and GMs.

2. Like iPippy mentioned, set a new timer upon entry of Horntail to spawn pre-head so that runners will not be allowed to camp inside pre-head 1 and not spawn it to hold the channel. Once pre-head is summoned, the timer is again reset to the original 2 hours. It is a given that prior to starting the expedition, all runners should be ready for battle. Should at any time one of your runners are not ready, you should not be given an advantage to hold the channel until your teammate comes home from his holiday trip from Bali - sarcasm intended. And since the fail-safe of 'runners not signing up for expedition' is in place for a particular reason, (ie. if you carelessly did not sign up and your leader has entered the map, your 'sign-up count' is not struck off unless HT is summoned) one should not have the ability to abuse this to camp a channel by not spawning prehead.

3. After HT expedition start-up, the member who started the expedition should have a cooldown before he is able to start-up the expedition sign-up timer again. To elaborate, after member A started the expedition, and all members did not readily sign up before the 5 minutes run down, member A should have 5 minute cool down before he can start the expedition again. This prevents people from abusing the 5 minutes commencing the expedition to hold the channel again. This third suggestion may not be the most effective, as members may just swap around between 6-12 of them to take turns as the start-up leader, but it may hinder some of the squads that require a specific member to become the sed mule. (No elitist advantage intended, but it helps)

I am on the fence on providing additional channels just for Horntail, as there may be other issues involved outside the cave such as more bigfoots, anegos, and other mini-bosses (which some of the moderators feel is an advantage too overpowered for those hogging these bosses). Besides this is the fact of spread out community and a 'falsely apparent smaller population' due to reduced encounters from spread out members across the higher number of channels.

I personally feel its dumb to argue over sniping a Horntail channel and it just spawns unnecessary drama which should have been easily avoided considering most of us are adults. Common courtesy should be involved especially when your friends and guildmates are already using that channel for their second run, but I do understand that time is money and not everyone has all the time in the world to wait an hour just to start their Horntail expedition.

 

I highly doubt the motive behind the toxicity that has been occurring in the cave the last few weeks is that people are trying to 'just annoy other runners.' There is a glaring issue that HT channels at specific times are in overwhelming demand, and there really aren't many ways to compromise around it. It's quickly becoming normalized to resort to "underhanded" tactics out of necessity, and I put underhanded in quotes because with current rules in place (i.e. mapowner), these tactics almost seem encouraged.

I think we're heading towards a slippery slope of perpetual cat and mouse, which will only add to the toxicity. If an HT run at server reset is the desired prize, when does it become enough time to preemptively hold a map? Is it 10 minutes before your desired run? 30 minutes? 1 hour? Lose out on your chance, and you're stuck waiting for 3 hours which will inevitably lead to a cancelled run. Or, you can chance it out by sniping someone else's channel, which will inevitably lead to hurt feelings. It's a lose-lose situation all around, and it’s bound to get much worse as the average population inches closer and closer to bossing levels.

 

As a player (please note that I'm choosing *not* to speak as member of the staff, my opinions are my own) a lot of the current culture around Horntail irks me.

Sometimes it seems like there's not much decency left to go around now, is there? But maybe there doesn't even need to be that much decency to make a positive effect.

I'm sure that most of you have some form of intrinsic values guiding your actions. Be it a sense of ethics that pushes you to do right by people, a belief in a higher power, or to just do your best to create as much joy as you can or to cause as little pain to others as much as you can. I'm sure that past the screen most of you are capable of holding an empathetic approach to those around you. And yet on the internet so many have fallen to the petty squabbles of schoolchildren on the playground, resorting to whatever tactics necessary in a fight for the sake of a game and losing sight of the people behind the game.

It's a mistake to value a potential HT channel more than you value the people currently running in that channel. If you're willing to snipe a channel, then you need to walk in their shoes, and to consider how stressful and frustrating it is; and no amount of callous self-justification can change the sort of toxic culture that's being created due to acceptance of that behavior. If you're willing to ruin some folk's night over a game, then that should make you reflect on your own life, because at that point I don't think it's a game anymore.

I'm not just calling out the hosts willing to snipe channels either, but every runner under them as well. They're only able to run because the party is together, and if you're willing to run in a sniped channel then you're a part of the problem as well.

Call out the host. Tell them you aren't running in a sniped channel. If you value the feelings of others more than you value the game that's the course of action to take. Force their hand, make them either run a crippled party or a proper one when a channel opens. Luckily for me I haven't needed to make that threat, but I'm committed to it because that's how I want to see people treated.

It isn't just your reputation on the line either, but your guild's as well. I've taken personal note of the groups who've tried to snipe channels, along with being thankful to the one group who asked if we were finished before they called their party forth. My opinions of those groups changed with their actions; but in the end it's your name, and entirely your choice with what you choose to do with it. Hold to honor, and you'll gain my respect and no doubt the respect of those around you. We know what's right, but it's okay to sometimes need a reminder of that, and a bit of encouragement to stand up to do right by people and hopefully fight off the toxic culture that's sprouted up in Horntail. I know most of you are good folks, I've gladly gotten to know many people here, but it's time to hold ourselves and our friends to a higher standard and to respect each other like we deserve.

 

But it’s okay for people to hold anego, samurai, and leeching maps for hours which has been going on for years?

 

I agree with the sentiment here. If Being Social Is The Best Part Of The Game, then we need to have a culture in the game where we're good to each other.

At the same time, I think some game behavior leads to frustrations that lead to sniping. Groups are sitting on timers for sometimes thirty minutes after reset, getting the countdown clock to zero and starting back up again, effectively holding the channel and preventing other people from playing. My "remember the human" instinct is weaker for a group like that than it is for a group that finishes a run, wants to go again, and gets the channel nabbed.

But I also don't think that we can count on a culture of kindness in this game. I think we need game mechanics (more channels or some of the stuff that AioriaX suggested) to create it. Which is a huge bummer.

 

so if we plan to run HT in like 5 hours, are we still not allowed to hold the map with mules?

 

The world says: "You have needs -- satisfy them. You have as much right as the rich and the mighty. Don't hesitate to satisfy your needs; indeed, expand your needs and demand more." This is the worldly doctrine of today. And they believe that this is freedom. The result for the rich is isolation and suicide, for the poor, envy and murder.

—
In situations like this, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the community to demand for clear and concise rules from leadership. I honestly believe that most runners do not want to resort to the level of underhanded tactics, but as I mentioned earlier, we are on a slippery slope of normalizing this behavior when leadership chooses not to step in.

Best case democratic approach:
The community draws up an extramural schedule and divvies up time slots for runners based on a fairly structured first-come first-served basis. This would have to be monitored and policed by GM to have any practical utility, but ultimately, it would give this situation a broader scope involving the entire community, rather than pitting one group of runners against another (or several).

 

I agree that it will alleviate the sniping/map holding problem; however, I think it will also cause other existing issues to exacerbate, such as complaints about declining MW20 and gene30 prices. By Increasing the number of channels, the supply of MW20 and Gene30s on the market will only increase. This will probably lead to the creation of another forum post, “Please nerf HT drops, I’m not making enough money”. TBH, this really has no effect on the casual player who just HTs for fun. If I recall, staff has expressed their goal of making the game more challenging. I don’t think flooding the market with more MW20s is on their agenda.

This is such an unfair statement. If group B was ready to run, why should they casually wait 1hour 45 minutes+ or postpone the run to a later date, because group A couldn’t get their shit together and be on time. If there are EST people in group B, postponing their run could mean they’re not finishing their run until 1 or 2 AM as opposed to 11pm or 12AM. You have to realize, not everyone caves their characters or can stay up that late. Getting an elixir to to enter the cave is already a huge investment for some. So please put yourself in their shoes before calling them out for their callous self-justification.

For the time being and until there is better structure for HT, I personally think it’s fair to treat it like all other PQs, where sniping isn’t villainized.

 

"Our time is precious so we're entitled to do whatever we want and we don't give a rat's shit about the other group's time" is basically what you're saying here. "Put yourself in their shoes", indeed.

 

If that’s how you want to interpret it, then yes. Make sure your party is there on time

 

I believe the way it currently works should stay as it creates an authentic gms experience.

 

I don't think you understand the issue being talked about here. When we talk about channel sniping, usually we're not talking about one party getting to start a run on a channel before the other (most people would not consider themselves entitled to a channel they haven't even started running in, anyways). We're talking about when a group starts signup on a channel right after another group finishes their run #1 on that channel, but before they can start signup for run #2.

Funnily enough, from what I remember the servers on GMS back then had unofficial schedules that people would follow to avoid drama. (I never got to a high enough level to run HT back then, but for Zakum at least that's what goes in the server I was in at least.) They actually handled this kind of situation much better than this server is doing, right now.