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Summer Event Balance Changes and Bug Fixes

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by Nise, Aug 30, 2020.

  1. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    I’m more curious why we’re even buffing mage solo target damage. Where’s the class identity? Mages shouldn’t be strong in 1v1...
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  2. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    I agree! And you’ll find that even with the buff their single target damage is abysmal compared to non-mages. However we wanted to provide mages with the option to still participate in whatever boss they want. Yes their damage will be bad, but at least not trivial!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
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    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  3. koreanhealer
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    koreanhealer Red Snail

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    Imagine wanting to be bish main and getting your SI mule to 120 this morning.. RIP
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    I remember some single target buffs for mages in the past were at the cost of blizz/meteor damage. I believe gene was untouched that time too.
     
  5. MeatSlam
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    MeatSlam Mushmom

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    Hopefully they will be able to explain why Paladins don't deserve to go to HT anymore.

    While I'm mostly joking the more I think about these changes the more it makes me wonder if you guys really really thought about how they would effect all aspects of the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    If you think we’re doing a poor job, we always welcome applications to join the balance team and teach us :)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Their downside should be bossing tho... Why is the best leeching class getting any buffs that help their bossing?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    Why are we nitpicking? Even with this buff mages will be lucky to scratch 50% of the single target dmg of even the WORST DPS classes. The buff is extremely trivial, I assure you.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. IHateApple
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    IHateApple Horny Mushroom

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    If we want to be more GMS like, why not revert all the skill change we did to make every class equally.

    Not just cuz so many people "abuse" one class, we should nerf it. If nobody play this class, we should buff it to let more people to play this class?

    Every class/skill has reason to exist in this game in first place, I understand GMs have the right to change this game to whatever they want, but if you want to make people who play this game willing to keep play, why not do a poll before the major skill/class change for opinion.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Creative Creative x 1
  10. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    I disagree. The balance teams job is to balance the game.

    Some of the most broken things in this game were:
    1) Mage ulties working with SI.
    2) Dex buccs and avoid formula abuse.
    3) HH mules in HT.

    They solved all 3 of these issues in this patch. I am sure after the changes the balance team is willing to reassess the state of paladins and how they fare in bosses and make the necessary adjustments. It is absolutely insane the amount of whining in this thread before having played or gone on a single run with the new changes or having seen the numbers and how this affects damage calcs for the impacted classes (MM and pally).
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 15
    • Agree Agree x 11
  11. MeatSlam
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    MeatSlam Mushmom

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    Don't need a mathematician to see how these changes will effect palys.

    HH mules needed to be addressed. I 100% agree. However not offsetting the effect it will have on Paladin mains seems so crazy to me. Yes they can readjust down the line but that might be 2-3 months from now (not knocking development time I know it takes time and I appreciate what all the admins do for this server). Some of us Paladins would rather not be a gimped class for 2-3 months if it can be helped.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  12. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    I agree that Dex Buccs and HH mules were a real problem. Mage ulties, I'm not so sure, didn't hear people complaining about that even though staff did say it was always intended to be fixed.

    Anyway, I don't think this game is like complex games like Dota/League where there are a million different variables occurring at any time, and you really need to actually test run the changes before understanding how it will work out. Maple is extremely figured out and it doesn't really take a genius to figure out what the changes mean.

    But I don't even really care that much about the DPM being lowered. I'd much prefer to see how they justify the removing of gameplay elements for Paladin mains. Flat out removing a skill from your skill belt is no joke, your gameplay literally loses dimensions (in a game where breadth and depth of gameplay is already juvenile at best). Imagine if in Dota/League they removed ultimate spells from every hero. Sure now it's easier to balance hero with each other, but the variety of gameplay just decreased -- the amount of fun you can have with the game just dropped (in case everyone forgot, the goal of a game is to have fun, first and foremost).

    Like I said, since I joined in 2017 I have been active on the forums and have always opposed knee jerk responses and tried to see things from staff perspective. But this time, it's impossible to ask the question "what are staff even thinking" when something as drastic as this happens to completely shaft a class's main identity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. postcard
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    postcard Selkie Jr.

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    damn guess these balance changes are what happens when over half the gm team is comprised of mage mains with little end game boss experience
     
    • Funny Funny x 20
    • Like Like x 5
  14. Blu301
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    Blu301 Pac Pinky

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    I'm gonna make the observation that the HH nerf isn't as detrimental for early-middle HT pallies as people are making it out to be. It's only natural to voice opposition to a nerf that seems this harmful on the surface, I get that, but I'd like to explain why this is not that big of a blow for pally bossers.

    I'll preface this by saying that I personally feel the nerf was a bit over the top, 10 second CD with 50k cap hits seems like a nice middle ground, but I'm defending the nerf because this change might stick. A 75% reduction says the staff wants to completely eradicate the effectiveness of HH mules in HT. Yes, it's a shame that sweaty folks schemed a way to optimize HH mules and now it's biting the actual pally mains in the ass, no doubt, but this change does not greatly impact a pally's overall contribution in a standard 2-party (8-12 man) HT run. Here's why.
    1. First I just need to say, every class should accept that their class is not optimally effective in every bossing situation, let's get that straight. What's the point if your class is the hottest shit everywhere you go, why wouldn't everyone just make that class? See point #4 for pally perks related to this. Pallies are the best class for Scarga and Neo Tokyo, and unfortunately they're sub-optimal for CWK and now HT - but nowhere near ineffective. I'm aware those are the more profitable bossings, but pallies are still very worth bringing to CWK and HT. They still outdamage like-caliber shads cleaving at CWK and can easily duo the 3 cleave bosses there by middle 4th job, and at HT, they still have top tier solo target damage which is far, far more important than HH damage. Getting into that now.

    2. Most of the pallies I see voicing their concerns here are early-middle game HT pallies, not endgame levels. As you level up, your HH impacts your DPM less because HH damage is capped and your blast lines are stronger - but also, as you run with smaller and smaller parties with less cleave damage, the HH nerf becomes more detrimental only if cleave parts (wings/arm/arm) are what hold up the run, aka the last to die. But this is uncommon. In a standard 2-party HT run, a team will likely have at least 2 cleave attackers. With 2+ cleave attackers (or even just 1 solid hero/dk), the wings and arms in all likelihood will go down far before all of the heads are down - and the cleave attackers can do this without any help from the HH damage. As such, the HH damage on the wings/arm/arm can be considered insignificant damage in 2-party HT runs.

    3. I'm aware that, for pallies who actually test DPM figures in HT, their numbers will be much lower than they used to be - perhaps 2 mil or more, depending on your level/damage. But your DPM number is lessened much more than your actual impact on making a faster run time for standard 2-party HT. Pallies effectiveness essentially remains the same for preheads, which are approximately 1/3 of a HT run. In body stage, assuming you're casting HH from the top, you'd normally hit 6 targets (head/head/head/wings/arm/arm). But as I explained, half of that HH damage can be called insignificant because the cleavers will take down those parts without HH help, and the heads will be what hold up the run. So the damage you're missing that actually decreases the runtime is now only the HH on the 3 heads. But you can also subtract the 4 extra blast lines you can fit in place of an HH cast from the DPM detriment. In the end, you're missing a much smaller percentage of damage that makes the HT run go faster than your lowered DPM number would imply, and as your blast lines get bigger that difference continues to decrease.

    4. Pally solo target DPM cannot be compared to other solo target classes in such a straightforward manner. Pallies have other perks instead, like guardian if 1-hand, solid grinding capabilities unlike other solo target attackers, being much easier to wash, and especially being much easier to control in HT due to stance, which should not be undervalued. Basically, pallies are both easier to make and play. Archers and sairs are not only hell to wash, but they are constantly repositioning throughout the entire HT run, getting slapped around like they're cotton balls while y'all pallies are sitting your heavy boulder asses down in one place 90% of the time with stance. Sure, NLs are capable of out-damaging pallies (but optimally speaking not by much), but they absolutely require SE. And the other solo target attackers, sairs/archers/buccs, even if they have party buffs to offer, will put up lower DPM numbers than pallies when assuming like-caliber because they constantly halt attacking to reposition and rebuff their team. Pallies retain a much higher percentage of their uninterrupted solo damage in HT than those 3 classes.

    5. Lastly, people really shouldn't underestimate the impact of solid solo target damage in HT. Generally speaking, it's what actually makes the run go by faster, this is why the optimal 1-party HT composition is with one cleaver (non-bishop) or even no cleavers at all if the bishop is OP (but not after this SI nerf, sad). Yes, in 1-party HT with weak cleave, the HH damage can matter more and be a bit more significant on the wings/arm/arm, but most of the people I see so adamantly against this change seem to be pallies who are running 2-party HT. And honestly by the time you're of caliber to pull your weight in 1-party HT, your HH damage pales in comparison to your solo target capability, that's where a pally's true value in HT will always remain.

    6. Lastly lastly, people primarily just want to run bossing with their friends, or decent strangers they connect with. If you're not getting on runs you should probably try to branch out and grow your network a bit instead of complaining that your slightly less damage than another class is what deters people from choosing you. And even if your slightly less damage is what cuts your chances, it's just something that people need to deal with. Other classes are cut out of other bossing situations for other reasons, it's just how it is, each class has its own perks. I'm not trying to be harsh but I'm a damn shadower main - before the assassinate buff, mages with SI could basically outdo our solo damage smh. I had to organize literally any bossing I wanted to do myself from lvl 135 on because nobody wanted shads. And even after the assassinate buff, we are still amongst the lowest solo target damage attackers. If you can't find your way onto teams, consider that you should maybe just bootstrap and make one yourself. Even if you can't find people in your guild and buddy list there are plenty of bossing discords and whatnot to help in that regard.
    I am not saying that there are not exceptions to the HH nerf actually being detrimental - again, the smaller the party you run with, the more the HH damage can potentially matter. But again, by that time your solo target damage should still be enough to pull your own weight in 1-party HT anyways without accounting for HH. Pallies are still hella solid for HT, this HH nerf doesn't change that. For the early-middle HT pallies running 8-12 man, your lack of HH damage doesn't decrease your impact on your HT runs as much as it might seem.
     
    • Great Work x 15
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  15. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    Blu301Blu301 for balance team. You can take my spot
     
    • Funny Funny x 9
  16. joota
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    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

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    All the balance team members are end game bossers tho :eek:

    edit: 2/3 are. Go FishyFishy AlyoshaAlyosha
     
  17. postcard
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    postcard Selkie Jr.

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    but not all gms are (experienced) end game bossers. am i wrong in thinking GMs definitely have a say in balance changes? is it not a problem if they don't and can't offer input?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  18. brown_puppy
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    brown_puppy Blue Snail

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    BeigePuppy
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    Regarding the HH changes.. there has to be a fair solution to gate HH mules while allowing Pally mains to exist and be useful in HT.

    1. Pallys who can't leech exp (under lvl 155) cannot inflict the full 200k dmg with HH [the idea here is to make the lvl barrier to entry for HH mules difficult]
    2. Make it a ban-able offense to use HH mules in HT

    I don't expect the patch to be reverted, but I'd like to see a brighter future for Pallys..

    (I know a lot of thought and hard work went into this patch so i'll stop whining :heart:)
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    I agree it’s a trivial buff but that’s not even the point. Mages have a full map spammable attack so why’re staff looking to buff mages 1v1 damage when that’s their major downside? It’s like buffing avenger on a NL imo.
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  20. Blu301
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    Blu301 Pac Pinky

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    MrPresidentMrPresident mages gonna out-damage shads once again :/
     
    • Funny Funny x 2

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