Information Christmas 2020 Balance Changes [Explained]

safe spot is top left bookshelf. You will need FJ/TP to reach it. If your leech buyers don’t have it you can door them there.

 

I don't understand what staff have against mages. Seems like there's always a new restriction or heavy-handed nerf to mages when the real issue is HP washing and leeching. The excuse is always that mages are OP but of course there are no nerfs to NL...

 

Man, from beta, there was skele....
skele IS NOT best $ farming spot, petri is. (except leech selling. if you include leech selling, should I calc?)

I'll definitely say this. 1H skele bish earns lesser than 1H petri AM, with, or without leech selling, whatever. that's the reason why you're wrong.

I won't tell about 5-6. since Shivering proved it freaking well.

 

LOL. I've compared my gains versus an efficient bishop's gain at Skeles. Please provide me with statistical data stating that 1h Petris gain more mesos/hr than 1h Skeles (with or without buyers). I can provide you with the data if you want me to, however you still would not listen to me.

 

I'm sure other pro guys will say which map is better with perfect conditions - MU/taunt/sweeper, skele, or, petries.
I put my coin on petries. Since i spent like hundreds~thousands hours in both maps.

 

You can get the data of skele gains from Meowth or Blu301. We're comparing apples to apples right here. Both maps with Taunt, MU, sweeper. I can give you my data at petris since I've sold over hundreds of hours (recent data, not 2015's data).

 

Too bad for IL, but I still don't understand why IL isn't playable in this server.

In most guides for newcomers, people always recommend to play BIS and IL in a same time with 2 clients as first chars. Both of them get semi-cleaving attack skills(Heal for undead mobs / Thunder Bolt) by getting the 2nd job advancement. Also, their skills have great utilities too.(Heal - have no words to say, Cold Beam/Ice Strike - freeze mobs) Those skills give BIS/IL more advantages in leveling up while playing lvl 30 to 119 section compare to other classes.

How about FP? It gets only Fire Arrow by getting the 2nd job advancement, and its damage isn't that better than the damage of Magic Claws. FP users should kill every single mobs by using this skill till they get the 3rd advancement. And it doesn't provide any utilities like freeze/slow/debuff for M.Def or even DOT damage. Of course FP gets great boost from lvl 7x by learning Poison Mist. It doesn't change Fire Arrow/Poison Breath sucks though.

Every chars have pros and cons. IL is definitely more playable class than any other classes with single-target skills. I feel sorry about immunity patch, but don't mislead the truth. IL is one of the easiest class to level up for getting ults.

 

OK, you win. Skele earns more than petries. so bish is more profitable than AM and able to join bossing so OP in every site than AM. gg x_x.......
(I really hope you try bish.)

 

You forgot to list the cons:
-HUGE grind to bossing level, especially if washing.
-Subpar damage unless you've washed out, which means you're not really wanted on runs until you're pretty high level, or spent billions on gear
-The only utility we offer is MU for leechers
-Probably the most expensive class to fund, +money spent on leech since grinding past a certain level is just sad exp(we get a fraction of the exp classes that can 7f get)
-Need an SE mule or partner for training, otherwise trash damage and exp if playing solo
-Avenger is trash
Also jumping shaolin mobs are gonna make my 3-4 grind even more annoying.

Yes endgame a well funded NL is very rewarding to play, but the journey to get there isn't easy by any means.

 

Hmm. I see. Will try this out when my MM is more ready for shaolin. I always imagine it to be a blizz into AE or strafe type of combo.

 

Please nerf shout and bstep before someone sells "5-6 split with stun. no pepegas"

 

S> good 5-6 Trio leech w/ shout & taunt | 1slot | no pepegas

 

same with the other ranged classes

largely the same with the other ranged classes, except Archers have SE & people are still reluctant to take washing Archers unless they CANNOT find a single other SE

other Ranged classes don't offer any bonus leeching utility at ALL

the most popular & in demand DPM class has the most expensive items, completely reasonable and fair

NL's barely EVER train at all, they either leech or boss

Avenger shouldn't be too good, NL have the highest single target DPM in practice, why should they also have a good mobbing ability? Archers need the ability to hit mobs behind them as well since they don't have flash jump.

Even with all these cons NL is still way ahead of the other ranged classes.

 

I dont know why we are debating about shaolin mobs being able to freeze.

shaolin mobs = bronze, silver, gold = type of metals = steel typing

Ice is not effective against steel, therefore it makes sense that they dont freeze.

HOWEVER,

Fire is super effective against steel so Meteor should do 2x damage to shaolin mobs.
I know I know, it sounds op. Therefore, we should make poison not work on shaolin mobs since poison also doesnt work on steel typing.

Why not base the balancing on a perfectly balanced game like pokemon? Jk fuck fairy typings (esp you mimikyu)

 

It was a joke.

 

"People would put 3 ultimates in a skill macro which makes multiclient leeching much easier, and almost effortless to do"

I get that Shaolin was meme'd for being effortless, but running 2 mages and ensuring decent EPH was a lot of work... A few sellers (Keenan, JDP, Mapleboy) combatted this by running a taunt mule (macro cast on both screens, followed by taunting most mobs with their NL), while a few other sellers (myself, mers, denzel) went about it by syncing our mages and timing our ultimate casts with the spawn.
Timing my casts improved my EXP/hr for buyers from 35m+/hr to 45m+/hr, and ensured consistent eph.

I know spam casting the macros was a bit effortless, but ensuring decent EPH required a lot more attention. It's similar to people who sell skeles with taunt and without taunt mules. You put in a lot more work to increase eph by x%.

I put in a lot more attention to my 2 mages when selling 5-6 than I ever did with my bishop at skeles. Just because my APM at 5-6 was half that of skeles, doesn't mean it was close to "effortless". Between controlling my bishop to HS/MW my mages/buyers to keep a steady EPH to teleporting back to my original spot on the FP every couple casts, to teleporting back to my original spot on my IL after every rotation, I just don't see how this can be considered "effortless".

If the goal was to nerf the EXP rate of shaolin, reducing the spawn count would have done the job, and been much less controversial. If the goal was to make it so someone couldn't sell 2 channels of 5-6 leech, making it so mobs cannot be frozen OR taking away macros, or slightly randomizing the spawn pattern would have been enough.

A month ago, I heard that the balance team was thinking of changing 5-6 without turning it into a ghost town. I know it's a lot more work, but it would be nice to consult the players who live at 5-6 about the new possible changes. I know they'll have their biases, but if you tell them your end goal (make 5-6 less afk, reduce EPH at 5-6), I'm sure the balance team can come up with better changes than the current ones.

The 3 balance philosophies Nise stated are:
1) transparency in reasoning, 2) preserving class identity during changes, 3) making all classes rewarding and viable in their own unique merit.

I'm just curious to see the specific justification for these few changes. Multi clienting 5-6 leech was not effortless by any means.
Was a potential reason for nerfing the map + mages because ONE person was selling 5-6 leech in 2 channels? Or was it because it was too easy to reach the threshold for the best leech in game?

Anyway, I'm just a salty level 180 bishop who retired the bishop to make a FP and IL mage to sell leech. Now I'm stuck with a bishop, an ice bishop, and a fire bishop.

 

My point is endgame we may be strong, but getting there takes more time and money than any other class, so the end result better be worth it.

If leech didn't exist nobody would want to train up a NL. Not having a decent mobbing skill makes leveling feel like poison. And it's the only class that really can't achieve any decent eph solo. Just not having that option is a huge con. Archers can solo or duo without needing anything. We depend on SE to be relevant in any area of the game. And we still can't 7f. You can't just say "they either leech or boss" without taking into account how rough it is to be wanted on a run as say, a 14x NL with some int.

I don't know why everybody wants to nerf NLs. Not taking as much damage and having mobility is balanced with unstable damage and lackluster everything except bossing. That's how it's always been.

 

I/L players:

They definitely should not match F/P in damage, I agree that the dmg should be buffed a bit

Shaolin is only one place, but there are so many other cases where I/L > F/P in quality of life (places to train, usability, some bossing)

Yup, but also easier said than done without making the players who have gone through the grind feel like they're being screwed over

Leech is definitely a byproduct of required HP washing and the idea that HP washing is a requirement for end-game material

Unreasonably/irrationally angry

Aren't NLs one of the more popular classes? People enjoy how they play/look because they're fun classes that excel at the endgame part of the game, even if the grind to the end is rough

 

Right. They're popular because of the end game, strong under the right circumstances. And that, imo, is balanced with the cost of admission and a long grind before getting there. People be throwing out NERF NLS because they saw some 18x NL that spent billions on leech and gear do insane damage. But when you nerf the whole class the rest of us get affected also. Remember the crit chance nerf that got reverted?
Some people want to nerf the avoid formula and basically eliminate alchemist lolpls. Might as well make flash jump use hp too.

 

I keep getting confused why people bring up cost of gear as a point of balance. Gear is expensive because its desired, not because its harder to attain than other variants. The cases where items are supply limited driving up the price compared to alternatives are few and far between. Gen30 is valuable while Blizz/meteor30 are not because it is wanted more. Same applies for NL gear. With the exception of Dragon Purple, claws are no harder to produce than other weapons. Not perfect, but generally a good indicator of popularity, which is in itself an indicator of class value.