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Shaolin 5-6F EPH data and suggestions for new changes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by sandpickle, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    With extremely controversial topics like this, staff will never comment :hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious:. Pretty sure theres a gag order on all topics that are controversial in this community :stop: just look at the previous multiclienting thread :hilarious::hilarious:.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 2
  2. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    I’m still having a hard time wrapping my head around why these changes are even necessary. 5-6F multiclienting is so far from afk or brain-dead.

    This isn’t like the dex-bucc change where you can actually just bring a char into HT and afk, relying on just auto-pot and abusing high avoid mechanics to get you through a 90 min run. Controlling 2 mages at 5-6F requires you to be actively engaged for the full duration you are leeching and enter consistent mechanical inputs into your character, regardless of whether you have freeze or not.

    I/L are also not as broken as you would think because prior to hitting 1350 TMA which would be mid-17x to early 18x depending on your gear you are required to summon ifrit to maximize your EPH. When you have ifrit active, often times ifrit will cast an attack on spawn before your I/L even freezes a mob meaning you will be getting knocked around just like any other mage.

    I guess I’m just wondering why people who are maximizing their characters potentials are being punished for playing the game actively.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    I've been wondering this same very thing ever since I started playing this game actively :hilarious::hilarious:
     
  4. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    The only reason is to reduce the amount of leeching in the game, and make people leech less.
    Not saying good or bad, but LeechStory?
     
  5. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Hello o/
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    Being taunted by staff members let’s go. At least that’s progress I suppose.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  7. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Jokes aside, there's just nothing to reply to.. it's all "what could have been". From my cursory glance through the thread, it seems to be some people talking about EPH, which is then corrected by others saying that it was a <10% decrease, opposed to the inflated >30% decrease mentioned originally. Rest are talks about what shaolin should be/was/is, and a lot of emotion-driven comments.

    If you just want my 2 cents just on the matter as a whole, it's important to look at the HISTORY of shaolin, and I mean from before it's release.

    Original Mini Gold Martial Artist (from CMS files)
    HP = 270,000
    EXP = 8,000
    HP/EXP ratio = 33.75

    MapleLegends Mini Gold Martial Artist (current)
    HP = 270,000
    EXP = 14,890
    HP/EXP ratio = 18.13

    For reference, Petrifighters have a 17.58 HP/EXP ratio. When the content was originally released (with the hp/exp ratio changes), it was released NOT as mage content. Due to the THICC hps of the mobs, we thought it would only be sought out by consistently 3 hitting or perhaps 2 hitting mages. It was thought to be a possible refuge for ranged attackers, and maybe some mages. While 7F could be taken on by melee classes.

    IF you had the magic/gear to consistently 2/3 hit, we thought it would give EPH comparable to Petrifighters (which is true, if you're solo-ing). What we did not expect, was a bunch of low leveled mages (of all classes) to be able to hit overly generous EPH by multi-clienting. The fact that it was so afk-able was another thing we hadn't foreseen.

    We've always tried to make things feel rewarding, equal to the amount you put in. AFK content ≠ effort, which is why we added mobs to safe spots in various Shaolin maps. But due to the nature of ILs, it only resulted in non-ILs being punished and reinforcing the IL superiority meta. Especially when before that, they could alternatively go to Oblivion 5 for high EPH as well. Meanwhile, Bishops and FPs were stuck at skeles and petris respectively.

    Jumping monks, were more of a thing that was a throw back to how it was originally but wasn't possible before until we adjusted some things behind the scenes. Additionally, jumping monks actually allow traversing between the maps to be much easier BECAUSE you don't have that cheeky monk just stuck on that one rung of the ladder.

    Tldr: there were a number of reasons at play for the decisions relating to shaolin, much more than what was originally written on the balance note. I think we could've been a bit more lengthy with our explanation and gone into more detail, rather than trying to be punchy, but this is something we know now with the benefit of hindsight.

    Hopefully this satisfies whatever you wanted from staff? Which I'm not too sure is what you wanted, but if you're just looking for an unsolicited ted talk, I'm always down to give those :p
     
    • Informative Informative x 5
  8. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Thanks for the reply Nise! I think 5-6 is in a good state right now. After spending about 40 hours at 5-6 this week, i think the eph (for 3h) is pretty great still (a little worse for duo mages, a little better for solo). The nerf due to lack of freeze and macro is compensated by their jumping, which allows them to clump up faster. There is a rather big eph penalty for falling down, and it's quite hard to stay up on a single mage, let alone multi-clienting. In the last week, there didn't seem to be that many people selling leech at all (solo or duo) and wasn't hard finding a map, which is a huge plus. Only negative is I spend about 2x more on hp pots, which is kinda a first for an IL.

    I do agree that IL have the most choices (of the 3 mage types) for where they can grind / boss, so I guess that's now the main tradeoff for the 20 magic hit.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    Since this change didn’t really address the part about being able to hit high EPH on mages at very low levels, which I agree is a major issue I would like to offer a suggestion:

    I suggest a change similar to what we see at CDs where the level of the mob was raised. If the level of the gold monks is raised by about 30-40, due to the high avoid gold monks have mages would be hitting way more misses. This would transition shaolin into a more late game focused maps and would bring back some relevance to maps like petris which is pretty dead outside of event periods.

    Maybe doing something like this would be more in line with the goals you outlined above instead of removing the freeze aspect of an I/L’s kit. I think removing macro’s already takes away from the AFK aspect of Shaolin so I’m not sure if the double whammy of freeze removal was necessary.

    I would like to convey the point that running 2 I/L’s at shaolin is very suboptimal due to the fact that I/L on the left pushes mobs out of ulti cast range due to freeze. They take about a 10-15M EPH hit compared to F/P because F/P hit all surrounding mobs on the left side and they flock to them.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  10. ctjh1996
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    ctjh1996 Slime

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    With all due respect, I strongly disagree with the suggestion of raising the level of the Shaolin mobs. The simple reason is that it will widen the gulf between those trying to reach the upper levels compared to those with already existing meta (high level mages). Duo mage shaolin grind has been a staple of lvling especially for the tough grind from 4th job onwards. If we raise the levels, it only serves those with existing mages more than those newer players. I belong to the former group myself and I will hate it that new players will have to suffer insufferably without such abundantly beneficial leech spot. I have personally experience it myself and sincerely not wish for mages to have to suffer 20% less or more exp at skeles, which honestly should be a lv 120-130-ish thing when they have hit gen10/20/30 so on. Shaolin being too OP is an insufficient reason on its own, give newer players a chance and let them enjoy their fruits as well yea. In any case, I agree with all suggestion that disabling macro-ultis is punishing enough, having tried so myself. I don’t have a I/L, yet I feel it is unfair to strafe their ice attack freeze when they have already take a hit in their damage compared to f/ps. Just my two cents. Thank you ML staff for always rationalising and being open to discuss changes with us! Deeply appreciate
     
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  11. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    5-6 is so broken that even people hitting 30-40k lines go to 5-6 to train. I remember when I was lvl 13X, 5-6 was already better than 3-4 (although only by a little). I don't think the alternative of 3-4 is THAT much worse. There should at least be some natural transition between 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6 as opposed to skipping directly to 5-6 as soon as you max blizz/meteor.
     
  12. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Bumping this old thread just to know if staff have any plan to make i/l useful again, after alot of multimage nerfs (macro removed, idle system) 5~6 leech is around 10%-15% worse than a 1250 tma fire poison at petris if you don't have the thresold of 1360/1330 magic in two mages while playing both simultaneously, so i don't see a reason to hold i/l mages anymore, after the last multimage nerf i just want to see if theres a chance to "new" players reach endgame, since our duty rightnow is just watching old players who took advantage of broken farm methods and left nothing more than 340m ws for us.
    PROS:
    • Lower the HUGE leveling gap advantage of F/P on I/L
    • Since its the only mob who is worth it to freeze, reduce the gap between Blizz/Meteor
    • Help new players in making a end game setup (it isn't bad since 5~6 is a meso sink, and its nothing extreme since f/p probably still better)
    Possible Cons? idk
    • Staff don't want new players to engage in this farming methods?
    I'm not too much experienced in 5~6, if freezing mobs increase alot the eph of 1360+tma sellers its too much, so maybe just reducing or removing the tma gap between blizz/meteor, f/p still the best class to level and have more single target dmg.
    EDIT: My post is a little bit confused, the problem is not about 5~6 being bad (it isn't lol) but i want to know if there's a chance to a change who validates i/l on this map.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Useful Useful x 1
  13. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Shaolin mobs immune to poison when?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  14. OP
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    sandpickle
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    Feel free to close this thread, I'm not even sure what my original suggestion was.

    flowflow, while I agree that IL are pretty underwhelming compared to FP, especially at 5-6, it might be better to start a new suggestion thread :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. randomhs
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    randomhs Timer

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    [​IMG]


    also applies to "bishops being stuck at skeles" LOL
     
  16. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    server lifetime. gotta make progression slower.
     
  17. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    so just remove fire poison from the game since u can do 40 levels in one day lol, making classes more equal is not boosting progression, i/l is a mainly farming class who get outclassed in every aspect by fire poison.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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