Make reverse weapons tradable even after equipping

Ppl talking about 60-70 WS while I dream of getting one in gacha after playing this game for 3 years lul

 

I'm sure staff has already thought of + discussed this, but I'd like to echo that making reverse/timeless tradeable should be considered more strongly. I don't know what the right call is but I know that almost nobody wants to buy reverse/timeless weapons because they're untradeable, and not getting any bids (not even lowballs) on perfect and one-off-perfect weapons is kinda crazy considering the market is at pretty low saturation. Bids would probably come in slowly regardless since these weapons are so expensive, but I think the buyer pool would broaden a good bit if people know they're buying something with potentially huge resale value.

I'm not experienced enough to know what the counterbalance changes should look like, like whether or not reverse/timeless base WA should be lowered or whatnot (the leveling RNG already seems to be poor enough that it'll keep things in check but idk), but not getting any interest at all on good weapons from countless smegas/discord posts is definitely not ideal.

One of the flipsides to making reverse/timeless tradeable tho is that it decreases the value of all other weapons further, and it'd crush the viability of Neo Tokyo weapons even further. NT weapons are hard sells right now even at under half what they were prior to PB being released, but they're still the best tradeable in the game. If reverse/timeless is made tradeable, casual players will still go for lvl 100 or dragon weapons and hardcore players will gun for reverse/timeless, so it leaves NT weapons in a pretty awkward spot. Though maybe that's befitting of Neo Tokyo's somewhat awkward position in general.

 

It takes about 5 attempts on average to roll +7. (Assuming +0 / +1 / +2 have equal probability)

 

People run Pink Bean for anything other than all the mw drops?

Joke aside, the biggest issue with reverse/timeless is that they serve to fully remove resources from the game. Normal gears can be scrolled decently and still have value. A reverse/timeless needs to be perfect or near perfect to be worth the insane amount of scrolling that is required of such an item. And the true value of the item isnt even known until you unwrap it and see if you pulled the "good one". I dont know about others, but if I wanted to play the timeless gacha, I'd just go play a gacha game.

Due to untradeability, timeless is, without a doubt, the last upgrade you can ever make. If you dont have the believed 21% luck to get even a +7 on levels, congrats you effectively have a virtual paperweight Unless you just have billions laying around to toss frivilously, its economically unwise to invest further in it.

One might argue that the piss-poor level rng mechanic gets balanced out by a lower market value of the item. And imo, that is actually what is happening, choking out dragon and NT (lul). Without good levels, a timeless/reverse is actually fairly equivalent to a good NT. To many players, this is fine and is actually a pretty decent upgrade in early-mid 4th for what it is.

But what happens when players taking part in the reverse game wish to upgrade? Old equips would no longer be entering the market, restricting the flow of goods, and destroying the upgrade cycle as we know it. No longer is the gameplay loop one of "progressive upgrades", but rather getting one decent weapon (likely a reverse of decent stats) and then saving up until you can get a (chance at a) perfect weapon. It just further cements the necessity of getting "lucky" to progress, with 0 improvement until you do. I didnt get as far as I did as a player because of my luck, but rather in spite of it.

At the end of the day, reverse/timeless untradability serves to be purely a meso sink, and that is the last thing this server needs. I feel like these sinks were created to combat mage meso farmers, but imo, theyll only serve to make having mage farmers a requirement to progress in today's server.

 

For reference, here are a few threads that people made when Timeless / Reverse were first released and tradeable:

• Timeless/Reverse Weapons Balancing Issue
• Remove Weapon Level Upgrade Before It's Too Late
• Kneejerk Reactions to Lv120 Weapons

 

These items are not really a "meso" sink other than the tax loss if you buy it with mesos. But if that's the criteria for meso sink, so is every other high value item sold for mesos.

I'd say they are more of an "item" sink. You use resources like white scrolls / 30% to create it and after it is either destroyed or locked on your character, forever removed from the economy.

 

Alternatively, instead of cutting the supply of timeless weapons we could stimulate the demand--one crazy-town-banana-pants idea would be to increase the WS rates. My expectation is that this would
(1) lower the price of WS and thus increase demand for end-game weapons, and
(2) help redistribute money from richer players to poorer players.

Also, it's important to note that making reverse weapons tradeable will likely have a negative effect on the demand for timeless weapons, so it might be beneficial to do simultaneously do something to counteract this so that timeless weapons don't go to shit

 

Just from personal observation over the past few years, the WS supply did get a considerable buff due to the population growing. Of course, this is slightly offset with a growing population also looking for WS, but it's still only a fraction of the new population and an even smaller fraction of the entire population. Personally, I think buffing WS drop rate is a bad idea and will only push this server's power creep further by normalizing perfect gear and diminishing the time-value of existing perfect gear.

The WS market itself is already an economic device that redistributes wealth from the meso-rich to others. Sure, making it more accessible and lowering the bar for end-game items could do something for Timeless/Reverse weapons, but I think it's an overkill solution that will just shift the needle of 'average' until it becomes normalized and we encounter a new set of problems.

I like the idea of making Reverse gear tradable, but I think there needs to be something that delineates it from just becoming the new 'end-game, tradable' weapon. Maybe forcing an item tag on the person that skills up/scrolls the gear?

 

buffing WS drop rate isn't binary though, it could be any increase, like a 0.1% increase or a 100% increase. If that change was to be made I would not want to see drastic changes as it'll likely just screw things up.

In general, I think every solution will shift the 'average' and eventually there will be a new set of problems. I think we can all agree though that a lot of thought needs to be taken with any decision because any change will have unintended consequences.

edit: the idea to buff WS is from the fact that the real value of WS has appreciated maybe 30% ish in the past year (since prices have depreciated but WS remains the same) which is making end-game less accessible. I think some price intervention might be beneficial if the desired goal is to make end-game more accessible or diminish the leech meta. Of course, there are probably reasons why this might make the opposite effect that I'm not thinking of or reasons we can't predict, so everything I said should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Is it possible to implement a Scissors of Karma for reverse/ Platinum Scissors of Karma to the game just for timeless/reverse weapons then? Make it so you have to pay with pieces of time/ rocks of time like the Wheel of Destiny. Hopefully this could give more uses/increase prices for pieces of time because the prices are slowly headed towards the 1m mark. For example, pay 45 pieces of time so that you can buy the Scissors of Karma to trade the reverse equipment. Not sure how possible it is to implement so that you can only use it for those weapons.

 

Thank you for the list. It does seem like staff will keep Reverse/Timeless items untradable? If that isn't the case, I do hope staff will not base this decision solely on the current demand for Reverse/Timeless weapons, but rather on the longevity/power creep of the server.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but PB weapons do sell. However, I think people in this thread are more referring to big ticket items like perf claw/bow? PB is still a relatively new content, so supply and demand for these weapons will eventually find an equilibrium level.

By making these weapons tradable, it will:
1) Make NT weapons more undesired than it already is.
2) open up the possibility of sharing weapons and/or players quitting and giving them away, thus leading to an indirect power creep. IMO, this will not be healthy for the longevity of the server since PB is technically the end game content. PB is already easier than it was intended on initial release, and I don't see any reason for staff to make it anymore easier.

I don't see how it's a meso sink aside from the cost to craft.

Current system is fine the way it is, but this isn't a bad idea either. It will probably boost the demand for PoT, but the whole reverse/timeless system will need to be overhauled. Maybe make reverse items craft only and not a PB drop?

Staying tuned for next week's thread.

 

This is just a personal opinion, but I think end-game weapons should always be kept less accessible. I think also a reason for the depreciation of other items is that more people are viewing perfect weapons as the normal end-game item and are thus sticking to risk-averse strategies like WS+10%. If WS prices go up (or increase comparatively), alternatives like pushing for another 30% or even WS+30% become more viable options. By making perfect weapons even less attainable, things like scrolling better armor become more justified as well.

We already saw a huge uptick in WS drop rate through the frequent events, easier raffles, and a larger population. This has become normalized and people are already starting to ask for more.

 

Reverse weapons are there for people who want to craft a weapon better than the NT equivalent, without the need for scarce Rock of Time pieces. Not everyone is able or willing to buy Rock of Time pieces, Reverse weapons serves that demographic. It's clearly not the "ultimate end game weapon" it's more intended to be YOUR weapon & untradeable. As others have said, if you make Reverse weapons tradable then NT weapons lose almost all their value (other than as crafting materials or the NT 1H sword, which is still the best 1h weapon). NT is dead enough ATM in it's current state & it's rewards don't need to get made any worse, given that it fills a content slot in-between HT and PB for (some) people in that level range (163-180+). NT weapons currently serve a nice niche, if you scroll a good one it can be one of the highest ATT tradable weapon in the game, & if bad still provide value as crafting material for PB weapons. If you loot an undesirable NT weapon that's just unfortunate but there's not much you can do about it, except be happy something of value dropped I guess.

There's far too much volatility in the value of clean Timeless weapons, given that with so many level ups on the weapons available, it means there are a large amount of possible "dud" Timeless weapons that (once levelled up & made untradeable) people won't bother to scroll or be able to sell off to other players. There's little reason to buy one at the moment given the supply is sparse, but growing every week. It's in a buyer's best interest to wait until there is an oversupply of Timeless weapons (relative to the # of buyers) & take the chance when the gamble of Timeless weapons seem more worth their cost. If people aren't even lowballing for Timeless weapons it should tell you how little demand for them there is at the current prices. If Timeless weapons are made tradable, then you will effectively kill off the Dragon, NT & Reverse weapons demand almost entirely in the long run.

With all that considered, we have people that want PB made harder & thus lowering the supply of these Reverse & Timeless weapons, as if that will create more money from splits instead of more unsold items. Lowering the supply will just increase the prices & since they aren't selling anyway ATM I don't see why you'd think it would make them more desirable for buyers. It's perfectly understandable runners & hosts want monetary returns on the end-game raid, especially with the upfront Meso cost of Apples + Pots + Wheel making. If you want Timeless weapons to start selling, then lower the prices to accurately reflect the realistic amounts buyers would actually pay for them to gamble on. You need to look at the items from a buyer's perspective and see how it is from the other side.

The supply of both Timeless & Reverse weapons will naturally go up as people level up well past 180 & become able to form additional PB squads. This will force sellers to lower prices to compete with other squads who also have PB drops to sell. Timeless weapons do not offer the value people think they do at the current prices & it's time to get realistic about the actual value of them.

TLDR: It's not at all worth it from a buyers perspective to invest in Timeless Gear, both Timeless & Reverse weapons shouldn't be made tradable.

 

I'm going to use Engaw as an example, because I'm too lazy to search all Reverse and Timeless equipment this also includes the gear not just its weapons and post them here.

Okay, so let's begin Reverse Engaw shown in the link states that its untradeable once equipped where Timeless Engaw is also untradeable once equipped, so as shown in the links provided I don't think that one should be tradeable regardless and the other not, as you wanted them to be.

I think they should be exactly as what they originally were being untradeable once equipped, unless you know..

Scissors of Karma comes into play here, but we all know how that ended up..
But hey, it's fine to not have SoK right?

 

Maplelegends balance, apparently, is balanced more towards "gms-like" functionality. If timeless and reverse items become tradeable even after equip, it would break the gms-like rule therefore its most likely never going to happen unless they consider that as an exception.

But from that aside, I feel like Reverse/Timeless should lose tradeability after equipped. Especially during the lifespan/long term health of maplelegends in general.

In the long term state of the game, once there are an abundance of (post scrolled and max level) high attack reverse/timeless gear. Many players going for timeless/reverse would end up buying premade reverse/timeless instead from building their own because hands down, reverse and timeless weps are by far requires extreme levels of RNG to achieve more atk than NT weps and dragon weps so players won't even bother making the weapons themselves. Sure it costs far more to buy a premade one, but players at that point would just save mesos for them anyways. its just far better than just making your own.

Once people have fully scrolled pb weps. Pb will become alot easier to clear and therefore more pb weps exist which eventually pb is the new ht and ht is the new zak.

With pb weps features Power creep. By making them tradeable after equipped, reverse/timeless in the long run overshadows NT and dragon weps making them obsolete and now the new meta lies on reverse/timeless rather than old glory NT and dragon weps.
By making these weps untradeable after equip it makes it so that dragon weps and NT weps are still viable mainly due to being tradeable and still worth investing 30%/10% +ws on.

At some point, it will turn the former dragon/nt to just throw 7 60% on them until you replace them with reverse/timeless

More importantly the dangerous aspect is giving away those said end-game weapon to a friend when the person decides to quit legends for good. It would defeat the purpose of just playing the game to get/upgrade end-game weapons. Instead, their friend will just get spoonfed with end game reverse/timeless weapons putting them extremely far ahead in progression mainly because that friend has connections with that person who is quitting. Unlike other people who have to spend their time obtaining scrolls and weapons themselves to achieves the same amount as their person inheriting their end game wep from their friend. It just wouldn't be fair at all.

I would prefer reverse/timeless to be untradeable after equip because it would avoid these long-term problems which can damage the game all on its own.
it's very similar to GMS absolab, arcane, and genesis equips .

 

You really make it sound like everything gets fixed if prices of timeless get slashed simply because they are overvalued from a buyer's side. I can agree that they are likely valued above what consumers want to spend on them, but I doubt theyll just become cheaper and be done with it. It feels more likely that it will become dead content faster, or at the very least emulate the current HT landscape where nothing is valuable except 1-2 items (and one could argue that it has already become that).

Making bean items cheaper sounds really nice in theory; theres bound to be a surplus as they just keep getting made bi-weekly by... theres 3(?) squads clearing and maybe room for another 1-2. If they arent selling, then prices have to drop. It's one thing watching the explosion of equips drop thinking there are going to be tons of these things, another to realize what actually drops. Half of those items are reverse not timeless (no way to know until its looted), half of those items are equips that are never going to be worthwhile in the current metagame (any class glove/helmet, any mage gear, cape, shield), and yet still half of the remaining items are going to be below average equips that have an even lower chance of becoming something noteworthy after level (again, you dont know true stats until it is too late and the current stats must fully carry its weight in sale). The massive pile of equips gets reduced to maybe one or two noteworthy equips on average (anecdotal, but somebody has the records of all drops).

Now that has to be compared against the cost of runs. Failed runs notwithstanding (although not insignificant, especially as more groups try to mount a run), expect to use 7~9 apples a run depending on deaths, multiplied by 30 people. Add in pot costs and if the run doesnt generate ~500m worth of items, then 30 people just ran at a loss. Most runs will make at least this amount, but to compare the amount of money gained from fighting an end-game level boss with 29 other people (with the organizational burden that carries) to farming or selling leech, the amount of money that needs to be generated by an average run is way higher.

Sure, 3 att stompers and MW30 could carry their weight in terms of value, but they arent dropped every run. Now we have to step back and compare the payout of the "cash cow" items to those of Horntail, a much lower level boss that is easier to organize for, actually gives exp, and that is generally believed to be already outclassed in terms of money-making viability by farming/leech. For the effort it takes to mount a successful run (from the organizing to handing out splits), the exp and money would not be fitting of an endgame tier boss dropping endgame tier weapons. And if it's not viewed as worth running, many people (not all) will consider it dead content. NT was/is dead for the entirety of its existence (minus one week where the boss drops were *good*), although it gave better equips than horntail/dragon. The gear it gave was obviously good, but not worth running, and so it doesnt get ran.

My personal opinion is that the problem isnt in the perceived value of the weapons, but in the mechanics of the weapons themselves.

Tl;dr Back to the cave

 

So first I want to say I haven't run bosses yet but I wanted to throw some ideas out there.

1. The reverse weapon level req to equip should be 140 or 150, therefore leaving some value with dragon equips at 110. Timeless should also have an increased level range, possibly 160 to 180 because they can be traded pre-leveled.

2. Reverse should not drop from PB. This should be craft only. This would (hopefully) increase in use of NT weapons and pieces of time.

3. Have some sort of trade-in or deconstruct for reverse/timeless weapons where if you level it up and the stats are bad, you can turn it in for something of some value rather than having a trash item.

4. I am not opposed to the idea of the Scissor of Karma. Increases in pieces of time cost can give poorer users a method of gaining money and then drop rate from pb could possibly be increased for cost of run vs drop splits. If the pieces become more expensive, 45 pieces for scissors won't be such a bad idea. You can possibly put a limit on how many times it can be scissored as well which will change the market value.

The biggest issue in my opinion is that PB is supposed to be an end game boss and staff want to keep him difficult, which I agree with, however the cost of doing the run does not correlate with the amount of money people are willing (or able) to spend on the drops.

I don't think timeless should be made tradable after leveling at any point since they are the true end game equipment but reverse is something that can be worked with.