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warrior balanced change thread (all)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Magen, Jan 17, 2021.

vote if you like the suggestion

  1. DK suggestion +1

    14 vote(s)
    24.6%
  2. Paladin suggestion +1

    14 vote(s)
    24.6%
  3. Hero suggestion +1

    19 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4. Disagree with DK suggestion

    19 vote(s)
    33.3%
  5. Disagree with Paladin suggestion

    12 vote(s)
    21.1%
  6. Disagree with Hero Suggestion

    23 vote(s)
    40.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. OP
    OP
    Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    I talked to some heros 190-200 that max their axes skills on top of Enrage sps as they even never unlocked it, honestly I can see why.
    I'm pretty sure you know em but if you want the IGNS ill give it to you in game- pm whenever.

    I never said that heros need help on cleave attacking terms, not here and not on the other thread I opened on Enrage, all I said is heros need boost on single target damage.
    simply cause the endgame boss is single target (PB) as well as tokyo's bosses and alot of other bosses are single target.

    Also, a 4th skill that can be replace by a POTION ? do you really like that Idea (Energizer tbh much better than Enrage)? If Enrage could buff +6att on top of other pot thats a different story - but as it override any other pot or rage, this is just ridiculous.

    and when you put DK VS Hero which one you would take to party? non-party buff class or one that can buff you HB and do same DPM on cleave terms??
    and what about Paladin VS Hero? the one who can HH and do good on single target or just a cleaver?

    because honestly today's HT runs you better take DK and Paladin and not hero - and im saying it as a hero, so if that is the case on HT what about PB??
    or any other tokyo bosses or bosses generally?
    So yea, as I compare my funded hero doing shit on single target DPM VS other classes which much less funded than me, is kind of sad cause hero's skills just not single target supported as they used to be in 3rd job.

    As I see the DK reaction to their health - no one can force you to wash your hp, you wanna play risk? dont wash? (or wash out of hp?) but I think the possibilty must be available. as well as it should bring more voters.
    HH- this is really sad for Paladin - I didnt see anyone who disagree with my suggestion did I miss it? - my suggestion blocks HH mules as well as it makes HH relevant again.
    Heros - they need boost on single attack damage thats just a fact.


    I think thats says alot

    as a GMS player 2005-2008 ish -
    there was no such thing as wash. so DKs had more health than any other classes, also maybe the best 3rd job skills as warrior class.
    GMS servers DK were the most common warrior, and at 4th job Neckson want to make balanced out of their hp.
    so what they did was coding a skill that force them use less hp to gain their power.
    how ever at that time DK +zerk were almost same hp as other warriors *(without washing), and that is what my DK suggestion ask for.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Haaaaayyyyy
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    Haaaaayyyyy Red Snail

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    6:59 PM
    After reading that PB tier list. How useful are paladins in the current PB meta? It seems they will be the least favored amongst all the classes. Possibly there might be a justification to remove fire weakness for PB or increase thunder/lightning charge to 160%?

    On the same lines of charges, I think ice charge should be buffed to 140%. As it stands, it's only marginally better than holy charge against a ice weak monster. Ice charge is also pretty useless at 7f now cause the mobs don't freeze.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Aesop
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    Aesop Orange Mushroom Retired Staff

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    1:59 AM
    Aesop
    Hero
    I play a Hero in GMS and have played it during '08-'11, I'm currently playing a Hero in GMS since 2018ish.
    Playing ML and re-living my pre-BB experience I did "miss" some of my GMS Hero skills that make playing it really fun (Rush being a mobility skill, Combo Orbs being a toggle on/off skill and Enrage providing a massive boost to damage while hitting a single target)
    But I do see how keeping Heros as cleavers is authentic to the class identity in v62. [Enrage lost its CD and became toggle in 2015, v168 for ref]
    Considering how end game bossing in GMS is almost 100% single target (the bosses have literally one hit box, the only reason you'd toggle enrage off is to clear spawn) the skill was changed because that is what the game developed into, there was a need for it which I don't think exists in v62.
    Regardless of that, in about 5 months Hero's Enrage is about to be buffed to hit 3 mobs, which will cancel out this argument.

    I personally maxed out Enrage and actively use it, I don't think it's useless, It's literally 6 attack that would cost you millions/billions to have passively, why would you not utilize it?
    I do although feel it would only be fair to give Rage some sort of a weapon attack boost (and Enrage respectively).
    Most classes come with a useful party buff/set of skills and replacing a class buff with a 5k NPC Shop item is kinda sad.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  4. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    7:59 PM
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    Imagine raising axe mastery instead of gaining 6 attack and then waiting a hero buff. :rolleyes::rolleyes: These are the heros you are taking advice from.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I have not leveled my hero till the point where I felt I needed to pump enrage. Based on previous post however, seems like certain NT mobs drops a potion called Energizer, that provides +25 WA for 30 minutes, which makes Enrage seems like a weird skill to have.

    Well, I've maxed my Axe mastery & booster using 3rd job SP :D
     
  6. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    You plan to Energizer through every boss all the time? Not sure why the existence of a 25 att pot will make people not want a free 26 att buff. I guess bowmasters shouldnt raise Concentrate either.

    It would be nice if our Rage/Enrage did see a slight buff. As Easop mentioned it really sucks being able to be replaced by a 5k meso item. Maybe a 2 att buff to both Rage and Enrage would be cool. But not raising Enrage just because there are Energizers makes no sense. Thats almost like saying thieves shouldnt raise Haste bc there are Mysterious Candies or Amorian Baskets
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  7. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I'm currently only level 146 so I can't really give comments on enrage.
    Can't comment much on energizer too as I have not unlocked NT content. But if energizer really last for 30 mins, and its not a rare drop, I won't mind using it on zakum, better then seeing my enrage disappearing every now and then.

    Personally would be nice to see enrage's cooldown removed, while retaining 26wa, but it might be too op, so not a really good iea :((
     
  8. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Just make ciders stack back to 1 and let rage be semi useful to parties again
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    A Cider nerf is super necessary.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    These energisers aren't so readily available that you can constantly spam and use them in every single boss fight you go on. NT mobs drop them, yes, but you can go hours before you find even 1.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. boldaslove
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    boldaslove Dark Stone Golem

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    Pally already got some of the biggest buffs in server history not sure why we're looking at this again. I think it's already over the top and past the "playable" mark we were looking at for the historically bad classes like vanilla shad, pally, bucc, and so on. Enough has been done for Paladins. I can't imagine more being done for them without creating a separate Super Paladin class which has no place in ML.
    Hero's have never been buffed and imo it's borderline whether they "need" it or not considering it was other classes catching up to Hero not the other way around. This discussion alone shows how far removed we are from the past. Enrage is used so little during an hour of grinding or bossing it's hard to see how it would make a difference unless the cool down was removed completely which won't happen given the previous discussion surrounding this. Odds are it's doomed to being a meme skill for good.
    Zerk I don't know enough about.

    quick edit: I thought it was cool we were making historically bad jobs playable, but going beyond that is aiming for a slippery slope a vanilla server shouldn't be interested in going down. If the goal was making bad jobs playable, we're already there. If a new discussion is getting rid of enrage CD we've been there done that. It feels like we're either where we need to be on these things, or we're just rehasing old convos. I'm for an enrage buff, but not at the cost of buffing other things unnecessarily when they've already met the benchmarks the previous buffs for other jobs were designed to reach.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. OP
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    Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    every time i go there(eruwater) I get like 2-3 in 1 hour so quick math says ever 1 minute I spent on eruwater map I get 1-1.5 minute of +5 attack then rage . (ofc there are some dead-times where i get none drops)
    Imagin Si/Hs(shield) buff could be a potion that dropped out of mobs?
    as 2nd job skills - HB could be bought outta a NPC?
    my point is -> as 4th job skill, this one have to be unique and not something pot can replace.

    Agree + I would suggest to nerf it to 18 or 16 weapon attack so Rage could be a party buff once again.

    all you said is nothing but the truth. Enrage could be used so little in 1 hour thats a big odd of it and the buff is too little.
    I think the reason things going back to discuss its simply shows it didnt solved.
    I think the the main point on this thread about Enrage skill is to point about that at high levels heros cant take part of the most important parts of the game which make it really sad.
    what would you suggest to do with Enrage?
    I think there given so many options about what this skill could do and all that left is 'staff' team check up things and discuss about it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. stomachache
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    stomachache Horny Mushroom

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    Why can’t high level heros take part of the important parts of the game tho? I’m sorry to ask but which “high level heros” are you speaking for?
     
  14. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Hes speaking about the heros that raise Axe Mastery instead of Enrage. :roflmao:
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Including party utility, Paladin and the arch-mages are the least useful classes to bring to pink bean.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Man y'all warriors have so much SP. Meanwhile my bucc has to wait til lv191 til I can put points in mw :numb:
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  17. boldaslove
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    boldaslove Dark Stone Golem

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    ty for reading and quoting my post. idk exactly what id do with enrage. imo things are kind of okay just how they are. the bad jobs got buffed, the good ones are pretty much okay how they are. i'm afraid buffing enrage or getting rid of the cd, or upping brandish %, could create a slippery slope where "we buffed a good job now buff all the bad ones again 10x" or whatever. at some point, we just have to like things the way they are. everyone can boss, all the bosses can be killed, every job is either useful in their own way or at least playable. buffing something "just because" is kind of the wrong thing to do especially since we're trying to play vanilla maple here. so imo we need to learn to love the game and classes how they are and i actually disagree with a lot of buffs that have already happened.
    if i were to do anything with enrage, it would probably be something sort of gimmicky like make it last 3 mins with a 1 min cool down so you're on enrage more often than not but not constantly. that could be cool.
    only prob is, i thought the buffs to jobs like pally, shad, and bucc were to make them playable, and it seems like they are. i'm not sure hero needs any extra help just because other classes have caught up. i liked it better when some jobs were good and some were bad. im in the minority there. anyway, i digress.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I think there's a few things that need to be remembered when we talk about heroes:

    Let's Talk About Rage
    • Vanilla rage only gave +12 attack, which was lower than coke pills & ciders & party bear buff (which was previously +20 attack)
    • Rage was brought up to +20 attack, to make it comparable and not eclipsed by the aforementioned buffs (aka an equally viable alternative)
    • Rage was never meant to be the "party buff" that was supposed to be relied upon as the best-in-slot buff
      • I say best-in-slot due to the fact that it's free and competes with one of the best pots in game (ciders)
      • Comparing them to energizers isn't adequate since energizers are rare and are sometimes sold for couple hundred K... why spend that when you have free rage?
    • If we were to increase rage, or nerf ciders, people that think "heroes will be in a better place" are highly mistaken :( if HH mules showed us anything, you'll just be replaced by a "rage mule" and heroes themselves won't really change

    How About Enrage?
    • People that are scoffing at an additional +6 attack (20 attack rage vs 26 attack enrage) are forgetting just how impactful +6 attack is. At later stages of the game, warriors have a scaling of 1 weapon attack = ~5.5 STR. That means you're getting nearly 7 LEVELS (33 STR) worth of extra stats every 8 minutes.
    • Enrage is supposed to be comparable to concentrate with archers, which also provide +26 attack, so buffing enrage could result in archers asking for a concentrate buff
    • For those that recall, concentrate DID get a buff at one point, with the cooldown being lowered and it was deemed far too strong and was reverted
    • Changing how enrage works entirely (aka a "rework") is very custom and would most likely not fit with the v62 theme of ML
    I look forward to how the discussion plays out after thinking about these factors~
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  19. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Concentrate also gives -50% mp spend and is still somewhat usable in conjunction with better attack pots/buffs like HT, heartstoppers, and apples. BMs also have no conflicting 2nd job skill that gives them +attack, so the skill is usable starting from level 1. Enrage's cooldown is 8 minutes with 4 minute uptime. Concentrate's cooldown is 6 minutes with 4 minute uptime.. Enrage is useless for the first 20+ levels directly because a 2nd job skill outclasses it, and it's considered the last practical 4th job skill taken for the class, generally superseded by defensive skills like Achilles and Guardian. I can't think of any other class that would prioritize defensive buffs over an earlier power spike.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. OP
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    Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    IDK about v62 but as 2005~2008 player im pretty sure that rage at that time was better than any other attack potion - best I remember was warrior potion at nlc (Also the best potion before then was ludi pill?).
    as I remember my range was always better with rage.
    back then coke pills/cider havent take part of the game - it wasnt exsit.(F am I that old?).
    In my opinion it sounds not realistic that people would do rage mules in HT or other bosses for extra 2 weapon attack (leech it to 120 for 2WA? it really seems to be not worth it).

    People simply scoffing about Enrage because its not a good skill - simply compare prices market VS places to obtain the skill - Zakum and HT.
    I think people not even bother to pick it up ?
    Lise wise the following :
    1. compare a 4th skill to a potion - Energizer gives you straight 30mins of 25 weapon attack with no CD VS Enrage 4/8 - 28 mins ish in 1 hour . Energizer is better.
    2. compare it to concentrate - Enrage CD longer than concentrate - 8minutes for Enrage, 6 minutes for concentrate; concentrate is better.
    3.
    this is all true while you are not in the 2nd run of HT or simply use any kind of potion that overrides it, Also you cant use apple and Enrage for example
    which means you cant refer it to straight +6weapon attack skill because it can be override by another potion.
    4. this is more like a question -
    at vanilla maple Enrage was +26 and rage +12? (althought i remember rage as +16 but maybe Im wrong) - so Enrage should buff +10 than rage /+14 than other best potion?
    If so, that shows why this skill on this version isnt more relevant -> ratio of weapon attack on skills/potion changed and Enrage remain the same?


    160+
    as it being compared to other warrior classes as DK or Paladin parties may take the others cause they give more benefit to the party.
    as DK/Hero cleave DPM is almost the same and DK can HB which is really necessary.
    Also Paladin VS Hero - single target+ HH is more necessary the most of the time comparing to cleaver only without any tweaks.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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