Manifesto On The 3 Main Problems Plaguing The Server

very word, reminds me of this



You can't change it because I had it harder in the past sounds like gatekeeping tbh. Not a good argument and It would be way better to say because I like it. The twist is that I think that HP washing is fine because it's possible to go endgame with HP equips, some washing (months) and a DrK in the party. New players could opt for that path but instead some get themselves in the situation where their characters have 300+ INT and then they need SOME washing (years).

It's alright for it to be months because that's also the amount of time you'd need to work on your character levels and equips. There's some funny situations where players would have the required HP to don't die but their equips are absolute trash so they don't get called to boss anyway.

should it be easier though? I'm a player that have invested 6m+ NX on a character but I honestly don't mind if staff makes it easier for new players, all the contrary it would also benefit me on working on some new characters. How easier though? To be fair it is already easier compared to a couple of years ago but I think it should be easier through new BiS equips that provide enough HP to keep the server truly hp washing optional post pb introduction.

 

Preach!

 

This is what i've been trying to say
We need to stop gatekeeping

 

I'm not trying to pick on you, so I apologize for using you as an example.. but I see comments like yours quite a lot in the HP-washing threads and it makes me sad. Boiling down the pro-HP washing argument to "well, all the high level HP washers want new players to suffer too" completely dismisses all of the additional reasoning provided. This thread in particular people have written lengthy, detailed, and kind responses explaining the effects of removing HP washing on ML's economy and the existing playerbase. There's also many other HP washing threads that have additional answers. I really hope that people take the time to read the replies that disagree with their viewpoint -- I think up to this point, many of the comments in this thread are empathetic and helpful.

--

Hopefully on a more fun/don't take this too seriously note: I started to feel better about HP-washing/voting when I thought about it more like going to the gym. Thinking about going to the gym for the first time can feel extremely daunting, as HP washing might be to a new ML player. The machines are confusing, everyone else has gigantic biceps, and I am a moron who struggles to bring in her groceries from the car. The first couple visits can feel like death and make me want to quit altogether.. But after reading some guides and getting a few friends to show me the ropes, I get more comfortable with the process. I start to look forward to reaching my goals through the hard work I'm putting in daily.

Do I *wish* I had rock hard abs without getting off my couch? DUH. But just because something takes time and effort doesn't mean it's bad. When a yoked guy comes and gives me advice on how to get a 6-pack, I wouldn't think he is trying to exclude me from the gym.. he's just sharing what he found was the best way to success! High level players who come into these threads and explain the various ways to HP wash aren't trying to exclude you, they're trying to help you reach your goals in the easiest ways.

Am I going to judge you for not going to the gym? No way! You do you, and I will cheer you on regardless. But if you told me you wanted to climb Mt. Everest and you hadn't ran a mile in years? I would probably gently encourage you to put in the time and do some training.

 

Cool so when are LUK mage buffs coming? Or is min-maxing mages not fun? I don't think people like min-maxing INT for MP (on non-mages). HP washing is a bug exploit that people metagamed into relevance in servers where NX is free. It's still fundamentally a bug and terrible game design. "People like min-maxing" and "it was in the original" is not a good reason for locking people out of endgame content with HP checks unless they exploit a bug.

 

Except the game became completely revolving about many bosses requiring
HP washing existed and because it existed Neckson made bosses like Horntail and PB or areas that just are 1 shot fests for ranged classes expecting players to be washing by that point

They realized how unfair it was that's one of the reasons nowadays no class in GMS needs washing, the game has been balanced so that no class is really gatekeeped from the game, but rather everyone has to put the same amount of money or effort into reaching that goal

You dont need to put money in GMS anymore to do a boss as a certain class, everyone needs to do the same methods for more damage.

Old Maplestory has many flaws , but ultimately damage and HP requirements for bosses is one of the most divisive

You dont need to remake your Bishop if you put thing on luk , you can just use AP resets

But if you didn't start washing your Attacker from the start optimally you have to remake it all over

You can level a magician from level 1 to 200 with Luk, you wont be optimal but you can, and you can access any boss if you want, you won't die unless you go way too early
Same as warriors

You can level an attacker to 1-200 but without HP washing , mobs like monks, leafre , and ToT become 1 and 2 shot fests
At level 120, youd expect to be able to grind at leafre, but mobs that do 3k+ damage one shot you and there's plenty.

And while the point of these classes is to avoid damage, is also absurd to expect a 100% avoid rate, you have to get hit eventually is part of the game, but you shouldn't be expected to die every time you do get hit.

Not to mention attackers (Archers , NLs and Corsairs) can't access many bosses unwashed, things like HH one shot too lmao, zakum hardly is doable , but everything else is pretty much out of the question.

Heck you could even do washing at a level you're comfortable and get to 7k HP but now you wanna go further beyond, and is not like you can patch it up
You have to start over, simply as that.

Start a new character ,put all AP into int, MP wash and also leech yourself , 50% because you're lazy to level up again and 50% because your character literally can't do anything

While a class has to do all of this to be able to do HT with or without HB, a first time luk magician can still go to PB without problems except skill

 

GMS didn't really have HP Washing. It did exist, but the vast majority of players didn't do it. GMS had a pay2win item that resurrected you so people would just use that to get through bosses. Anyway, my point is just that mage has 0 min maxing. You just dump all points in INT. It's boring as hell.

 

HP Washing in ML
A play by jesscapades
---
Setting: a successful, longstanding, and popular Japanese restaurant, in a city with many other types of restaurants.

[new customer walks in]

New customer: Why don't you guys serve Chinese food! I don't like this menu!

Sitting customer: hey, the Japanese food here is really good though. I really like it. The ramen is really popular--you should order a bowl to at least give it a try!

New customer: No. I don't want to have to eat 20 bowls of ramen.

Sitting customer: you don't have to eat that much, but that's fine. I don't usually go for the ramen either. How about the gyoza? It's really similar to a dumpling and might satisfy your craving.

New customer: No, I only want 100% authentic made-by-rural-Chinese-grandma Chinese food. I'm staying but I'm going to complain until it's added to the menu. Clearly they only serve Japanese food here because that's the way it's always been, and not because anyone actually likes it.

Sitting customer: =(

~ fin ~

 

While the OP is making a lot of suggestions that would completely rework how this 5 year old server functions, I think it is kinda rude to just completely discredit his claims just because he is a new player. First of all with the addition of pink bean being the new end game boss, washing is more needed now than when horntail was the end game boss. One issue with washing is that new players who come to play maplelegends aren't immediately going to come on to the forums and read these long guides explaining the intricacies of hp washing and how much int you should put in early and how you should get int gear as soon as possible so you don't gimp yourself. If you're a nightlord or archer player and you hit something like level 50 without ever learning what HP washing is you're already severely at a disadvantage compared to established players. Even if you learn early on with hp washing is, it still costs mesos to buy int gear and it still is hard to level, since these new players will lack the funds to have damage gear at all. The easiest way to level would honestly to just make a bishop and leech yourself which is such a huge investment and some people simply don't want to be forced to do that. Washing for an established player is a lot easier since they have the funds to leech and have good int gear already. For me I personally was able to wash my nightlord to 17k hp while having less than 40 int since level 135, something a new player would realistically never be able to do. As someone who is already established I find no issue in adding ways for players to catch up in washing, something like a system that'll be able to grant permanent HP if you're under a certain threshold, but not a too high threshold that'll completely kill washing as a mechanic maybe? That way people don't get punished for not immediately min maxing washing and can still do super end game bosses if they find out they enjoy the game a lot and want to eventually do those bosses. Getting to pink bean or toad level and damage takes a long, long, time and players shouldn't have to make the decision super early on if they want to eventually reach that point. Should players already know what they want their goals to be hp wise and boss wise immediately when they make a character? The way it is right now hp washing is a mechanic that is abusable by older players like me and completely just hurts newer players that want to play the game. I realize that the fundamental way the game works can't be changed at this point in the server's life, but there can be more ways to help out new players and saying "oh I struggled so these new players should struggle also" is a shitty mentality like previous people mentioned.

As for the other suggestions, I personally see no problem in multi clienting except as in for stuff that just completely breaks the game like HH mules (which got nerfed so that should be fine now?) and as for leeching I don't really see it as a big issue except that it takes away maps that people want to grind at, but it seems like there have been a lot of steps taken to nerf leeching and diversify the training spots for lots of level ranges, so I think that's in an alright spot too.

anywaysTLDR is that new players shouldn't be forced to min-max and shouldn't be punished for not min-maxing hp washing from the creation of their character, new player feedback is important, but also new players shouldn't suggest to completely rework the foundations of hte game that have been around for 5 years cuz that aint happening xd, but hey if we can get new stuff to help out players who actually play the game that'd be gucci, cuz the way hp washing works rn is you literally just pump int and get rewarded for pressing a big fat vote button every day, also wikipedia defines multi boxing with hte same definition we use multi clienting here
so who cares aobut what term the OP used lmao u guys know what hes talking about
anyways LPQ is lit, buff LPQ #free$maple lpqg0d2 i aint smart enough to come up with actual solutions but new players deserve rights too ty for coming to my [redacted] talk

 

Just spit balling ideas IF anything were to change regarding HP washing, which I'm fairly certain not much would outside of more HP equips, but...

Not sure how well it would work, but a possible way to remedy/ease this would be to add a small, set MP gain per class on level up, such that at level 200, they will have enough MP to be able to wash to some set HP threshold. I don't know if it should be all the way to 10k HP, or if it could be something a bit lower so that you will still need to do some base int/ int gearing on your own, but newer players aren't completely shit outa luck if they don't realize anything about washing beforehand. Of course, this would still keep the NX/voting mechanic the exact same, so the amount of time needed to full wash wouldn't change a significant amount, although with less base int needed and less MP washes needed it would still go down some.

So let's say the threshold is 8k HP. At lvl 200, an unwashed NL would normally have around 4843 HP (not sure about this number, just took from chew's old washing spreadsheet). They need 3157 more HP to get to the 8k threshold. With an HP gain of +18 per wash, they would need ~175 washes to make this happen, and at -12 MP per wash, they would need ~2100 extra MP. Starting from lvl 30, with 170 levels to go till lvl 200, they would need around 13 extra MP per level to get there. You could scale this up as you level as well, so that earlier levels will receive less MP in favor of giving more per level later on. And people with existing characters would just receive some bonus MP to play around with. The threshold would have to be different per class as well thinking about their needs, which could be a bit tricky balancing everything out

 

Isnt that the whole idea of min maxing? Also theres a lot more that goes into min maxing a mage besides just spamming INT.

 

Just play a warrior.

 

yea sometimes u gotta put in points into mp and THEN take it out and put it into int!!

 

It's not better off. Washing as I said is definitely an exploit that is an issue that was brought from Neckson and is definitely a detriment to all players. However I did mention that factually, it will not go away in this server. Also I have mentioned that staff made it easier for us, and minimized the ''required-minimum-HP-washing'' by addition of HP gear. Hence, no doubt you still need to wash a little, you don't need to pump 200-400 INT to play the game.

It is true that the current meta would favour a ranged attacker that has 12k HP, however like I said it is not a must. You can still make yourself attractive to bossing organisers by making yourself more efficient with bossing, get better damage, play better or organise them yourself.

13k HP as a requirement is very misleading. It is not a requirement. It is just a better quality of life for your ranged character if you are lazy to study the boss animation skills and dodge the attacks that potentially one-shot you. It is a lazy way-out that players have exploited in the game to increase their survivability and ease/reduce their attentiveness/stress of dying.

And finally, why remove DKs out from boss runs? If TS is trying to advocate removal of HP wash and leeching but maintain class identity and balance, the suggestion to consistently run without a DK is outright suggesting an option to make ranged attackers easily obtain 19k HP and blatantly discriminating warriors out of bossing runs.

If this is your goal, it is not impossible if you are willing to vote and patiently wait for enough NX to hit 19k HP clean without HB. But like I said, it is NOT required.


Base HP = 7.5k


To every new player who thinks 12k HP is a MUST, you have been falsely mislead by the new meta of the game which is TO SURVIVE EVERY SINGLE BOSS ATTACK WITHOUT ATTEMPTING TO DODGE IT.
- this is only because we are pretty well-known for being lazy and not as attentive when we choose to play ranged attackers like NightLords (classic ''I just want to AFK and hold one button'').

What about Archers you say? Not enough avoid you say? People like Radiologist, Tekyuu, TaxDog, OpTiC, SodaGor have consistently survived PinkBean and Nameless Magic Monster runs, and I can say that they have also learned which skills from the boss that one-shots them. Do they have 12k HP? No.

Can you still boss without 12k HP? - yes
Can you still survive without 12k HP - yes
Is it true you still need to wash - YES a little, but not 200-400 base INT
How to survive? - learn to be efficient, learn the bossing animations and dodge the incoming attacks

The real HP milestone that you need in this game as a ranged attacker is 9.4k HP
9.4k because with HB you have 15k
15k lets you survive Toad runs
15k lets you tank a single Damage-Reflect proc in PinkBean (especially now with reduced DR-animation-to-effect-time)

HP gears provided in the game by staff:
1000 HP from Tier10 ring, 300 HP from MON, 300 HP from Blackfist cape, 7 slotted permanent Pet gears with 50 HP per 30% scroll (I personally made 200 HP from each pet, and you can have a total of 3 pets up (600 HP from 3 x 200hp Pet gear), 100 HP Elin ring, tons of HP from event gear that has consistently been released.

I'm not dismissing TS's suggestions, they are great but it remains a fact that HP washing will not go away. Do not deter new players from playing the game and mislead them with the new meta. It is still very playable. You just need to put in more effort in other aspects like surviving and making yourself attractive to boss organisers to pick you up despite your lower-tier HP.

 

L> more plays

 

can you point me to more than one person in this thread that supports this analogy? A lot of people in this thread who are against HP washing are just cherry picking sentences to argue against.

The majority of people replying to this thread have said they either like it, or think that it's good but needs some improvement. People like Panda, yogurtseller and AioriaX have written out very good replies that have echoed your concerns, given compromises and suggestions, highlighted arguments that aren't sound and highlighted arguments they agree with. Yet, all I see from the other side is close-mindedness and stubbornness. It's extremely frustrating, which is why I chose to write some satire to highlight the difference. The point of it was that it accurately summarizes this thread, which your reply completely missed the mark on.

 

We only fight plays with plays here.

 

This is why I'm 100% convinced the people that create these kinds of threads are just trolls. Prbly shill accounts made by staff members of other servers.

 

Min maxing involves balancing multiple stats to hit important breakpoints. I can see why Neckson all but removed the RPG elements when so many players are keen to just follow a guide and put all AP in one stat though. Good grief. It would be nice, imo, to have more than one or two viable builds for each job.

Edit: sorry for offtopic