2-Handed BW/ Axes Buff!

I believe changing the stats on a large swath of existing item is very difficult technically. Probably the "cleanest" solution is to change the STR multipliers for axe and BW, but I think the staff is really averse to making this kind of changes.

 

Buff attack speed by 1 stage across the board for every single BW/axe, putting them on par with swords in that category. No other changes necessary.

Bw/axe have a fuckton of problems. Inherently unstable damage multiplier, variance on swing/stab, but I view attack speed as the main problem because it's the most tangible problem. It feels like shit to use any slow weapon, and even SI cannot bring 2h bw to max attack speed aside from Morningstar which is shit. Having slightly lower damage is actually unnoticeable most of the time (contrary to what the sweaty fucks on this server will tell you) but that slower attack speed is blindingly obvious and slows down everything you do in the game, making your character even clunkier than warriors already are.

The combination of these 3 things makes axe/bw not just inferior to swords but an absolute joke, aside from rare exceptions like Crushed Skull (still shit after Timeless release).

I say we just raise the speed by 1 stage for all of them. Yes, all, even crushed skull which becomes kinda sorta but not really equivalent to ST, at least in terms of attack speed without si. Mind you, they'll still be exactly inferior to swords, it's just the way the game is programmed, but at least they'll be less of a joke and feel a lot better to use.

 

I wouldnt call the lower damage "unnoticeable". On a hero, with equal amounts of slashing and stabbing, the 1h axe brandish is 95% that of 1h sword brandish, and 2h axe brandish is 89% that of 2h sword brandish. That is quite a lot, especially in late game. In fact, it looks like you'd have to slash 2/3 of the time for 1h bw/axe to be equivalent to a same attack 1h sword, and 86% of the time for 2h to match its equivalent. Even with an attack speed boost (which is only necessary for 2h w/ si), pally will have issues with hitting cap damage on its "good swings" and too low damage on the "bad stabs", while hero will simply have issues with an unfavorable slash:stab ratio.

 

I personally enjoy playing with slower speed weapons, which is why I opt to use them on my STR mage. I think it feels a lot nicer and more tangible to hit something with a super slow weapon, and I don't think this is a very uncommon opinion. Even some games nowadays make a point of making big weapons slow to add some "weight" to them (Dark Souls comes to mind). Increasing the attack speed would mainly just homogenize weapon choices, especially with SI, which would be a hit to the RPG aspect of Maple. I think that increasing the maximum damage multiplier (but leaving the bigger range and difference between swings) would be a better change, especially if it helps to lessen the gap in DPS.

 

What about the economical impact of a change like this? People who hoarded BW scrolls suddenly have something that might be valuable now. People who were using suboptimal BW items with high stats that were made for next to no cost now have very strong items comparable to items that are worth billions of mesos.

 

well, overall str was pretty worthless last year, i randomly scrolled 22str BR that used to worth 2-3m at best back then, but now becoming 70m for some reason :/

 

That's an interesting take I had not considered for sure. I get what you mean by weapons with the feeling of weight, really, I'm a huge Dark Souls fan too.

I'm not sure you can say that it is a common opinion though, the general mood of this server is optimization of bossing DPM which in this game means faster attack speed. I mean for casual purposes like str-mage and grinding sure it doesn't really matter but I don't think we're balancing around casual players. If balancing for end-game viability, in this game attack speed is one of the key stats, which is why every 1h Hero and Paladin wanted a flairgrave. Personally slower weapons in this game hardly give me the sense of oomph at all, it just feels slow since the sound of your weapon hitting enemies depends on the enemy and not on the weapon. And the animation for 4th job warriors is fixed anyway, you won't get that feeling that you're swinging a large hammer when blast is just more of a thrust. Yeah can't tell without collecting more opinions in the server but I doubt the late game optimizers will take this into consideration.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but axes have better attack base in the late game weapons (Endgame) ? Like 3 att higher base?
It would be interesting to see damage difference between let's say 130att Claymore VS 133 (or whatever base bonus) axe.
Also in terms of si+SE.
Is there anyone in game that checked that already ? (And not the same att sword&axe).
Also 1handed (same shield) as well.
Also axes have another advantage to being much cheaper than swords.
Generally I think the post author right on his statement that axes right now is something that is rare to see, but I'm not sure if it's related to axes bad compare to swords or players style + easier to to find godly sword than axe these days.
As I find sometimes people here choosing the easier route to go but it's not always the optimal (yes I'm the infamous Sparta user that white most of ST heroes)
My question is - if you build your warrior to use axe and fund it as you would fund sword warrior is it still not viable?

 

You are right, but axe has different swing/stab formulas compared to sword.

Brandish uses 1 swing, and one stab in a single hit.
Axe do 110% on swing, and 85% on stab. Total gives you 195% damage.
Sword do 100% on both swing and stab. Total gives you 200% damage.

I do have some unscrolled colonial axe if you wanna try out tho hahah. If you have some unscrolled devil sunrise we can try to make the comparison

 

I would love to take part in these test but, I have no axes and also didn't max any axe mastery of 2nd job as well.
So I assume i can't be the one who test it.

 

i have maxed sword + axe mastery and buff, if u want to

 

Sorry in advance to for the math. Scroll down, if you want, for my discussion and opinion.

These are the damage formulas for 2H sword and 2H axe; the 2H axe formula is the average of the swing and the stab formulas, given that brandish does one swing and one stab per attack.

Average max damage using 2H sword: (STR*4.6 + DEX)*WA/100
Average max damage using 2H axe/BW: (STR*4.1 + DEX)*WA/100​

Now let's suppose a 2H sword has S weapon attack, and a 2h axe has A weapon attack. Now let's make a variable x = A - S, the difference in weapon attack between the axe and the sword.

Question: what value of x would lead to the average max damage of the 2H axe being higher than that of the 2H sword?

Spoiler: some algebra

(STR*4.6 + DEX)*S/100 < (STR*4.1 + DEX)*A/100

Substitute in A = S + x

(STR*4.6 + DEX)*S/100 < (STR*4.1 + DEX)*(S + x)/100

(STR*4.6 + DEX)*S < (STR*4.1 + DEX)*(S + x)

STR*4.6*S + DEX*S < STR*4.1*S + DEX*S + (STR*4.1 + DEX)*x

STR*0.5*S / (STR*4.1 + DEX) < x​

​

This is our condition for the 2h axe being stronger than the 2h sword, assuming same attack speed.

Let's sub in some values for STR, DEX, and S (sword att). I'm not going to do a full equip build, I'm just going to assume total stats (after gear, MW) DEX = 100, and test out a few scenarios:

1. STR = 700, S = 120
Result: x > 14.14.

2. STR = 900, S = 130
Result: x > 15.44

3. STR = 1100, S = 140
Result: x > 16.70​

So assuming same weapon speed, across these scenarios the axe needs to be 14.14 to 16.70 att higher, which is around 11% more att. Even if my scenarios aren't the most accurate depictions of warrior stats, it won't make much of a difference; the axe always needs a non-negligible amount of extra att to catch up. Plus, once you get to your end game weapon, it is becomes impossible to have an axe with 16 more att.

Now factor in that the axe is slower, and the gap is even bigger. The only thing that would lessen that gap is physical range, but it's hard to say what the impact is without testing. In a grinding situation, this difference could be lessened if it allows you to cleave more, but since brandish only hits 3 targets anyways I'm not sure if that's going to have an impact. In a bossing situation, again it's hard to say, but I think having extra physical range is not helpful. The only bossing scenario where a cleave's range is impactful is HT; with a 2H sword, you can already cleave all the parts on the right side, and all the lower parts on the left side. With extra range, it's possible you could cleave left + mid head at the top left, but I have no idea if this is true. If this is true, that impact would vary based on how much time you spend up there. In my runs, cleavers spend maybe about ~20% of the run up there, and according to a Toxic Hero I know, he hits the left head about 10% of the time and mid head 100% of the time. So if you raised that to a total of 200%, the HT dpm would go up by about 16% ( [200% - 110%]/110%*20% ). But, keep in mind it's also about 8-9% slower (690ms vs 630 on SI, 750ms vs 810ms on booster).

*math over* ----------------------------------------------

math TL;DR 2H axe needs ~15 more att on average to be better than 2H sword, without factoring in weapon speed and physical range. Including weapon speed would make it an even bigger gap; including physical range might lessen it, but I'm doubtful on it given that heroes already don't cleave a lot when grinding (only 3 mobs at a time) and can cleave almost everything they should be cleaving when bossing.

Overall, this shows that 2H axe/bw damage is trash compared to 2H sword, with it possibly being less trash with extra physical range. I don't play hero or any warrior, so my opinion might be irrelevant. But personally, I don't think this warrants a buff. This is a great game already and I don't think it's necessary or worth it to make every single little thing viable. I can get behind class balancing, but skill builds and such feel unnecessary.

Mainly, I don't see why having additional weapon choice is so important. Heroes and paladins already have a choice between Fast (5) and Normal (6), on top of the usual choice between dragon/nt/reverse/timeless. Aside from warriors, most classes don't have that much weapon choice, except mages (staff vs wand) and--drumroll please--shads. Shads have a choice between a STR dagger and a 0 STR dagger, and no one uses the 0 STR in end-game because it's trash. Yet, I've never heard a single complaint, so huge S/O to my fellow shads for never whining about it.

 

I dont understand why people want all choices in the game to be good choices. I feel like in an RPG there are always going to be good builds, and bad ones. I think its only a problem if a class doesnt have a good build, or if its good build is just trash to begin with.

I feel like the staff has done a relatively good job at making sure a lot of the classes that were trash in 0.62 GMS are buffed significantly.

My suggestion: Release Axe NX weapons so Heros can enjoy the damage of a 2h sword, while using an Axe.

 

I generally agree, but from my experience on other servers (I'm new here and don't mean to presume to understand how things work late game) the problem comes from communities being very dismissive of people not following the min-maxed, most effective builds, and so the Axe Heroes of the world get passed over for boss runs etc. I don't mind Swords being objectively better, but making the difference a bit tighter would be cool

 

Might be cool looking at paladin holding axes

 

If you also refer to make the differences a bit tighter for 1h compare to 2h too, here is double thumbs up