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On the Requirements of HP Washing and Potential Solutions

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Motto, Mar 1, 2021.

Tags:

Which suggestion looks more appealing

  1. WDef / MDef Formula rework

    27 vote(s)
    30.7%
  2. More Rings

    25 vote(s)
    28.4%
  3. Both

    31 vote(s)
    35.2%
  4. None

    5 vote(s)
    5.7%
  1. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    11:36 PM
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    Hello Hello all!
    Welcome to my Suggestion thread were we will tackle 2 possible solutions for the dreadful HP Washing shitfest happening on forum every 5 to 10 days.

    I will provide facts regarding the HP Washing "optionality" that has been discussed by akashskyakashsky in his Thread (Nice to read before reading this thread : https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...washing-to-be-optional-on-maplelegends.26370/)

    And given the basis he has concluded
    Improving W.Def and M.Def Formulas

    One of the major setbacks that could be taken care of is the fact that both W.Def (shortened to WD) and M.Def (shortened to MD) have been a lackluster to be based upon for being hit less.

    As per Ayumilove formulas, we are looking at something like this :
    Code:
    Weapon Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) * (1 - 0.01*D) - WDEF*.5
    MIN damage = (MIN before defense) * (1 - 0.01*D) - WDEF*.6
    where D is (monster level - player level) if (monster level) > (player level), and 0 otherwise.
    
    Magic Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - MDEF*.5 * (1 + 0.01*D)
    MIN damage = (MIN before defense) - MDEF*.6 * (1 + 0.01*D)
    Lets just forget about the (1 + 0.01*D) setting in most monsters so that we can look at the formulas in a more concrete way.

    Regularly while talking about HP Washing threads and survivability at bosses we are interested in this particular part of the formulas :
    Code:
    Regular WD/MD Buff
    Weapon Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - WDEF * .5
    
    Magic Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - MDEF * .5
    The given .5 ratio over WD and MD will be proven to not provide enough DMG decrease for any particular improvement in Gear.

    Based off on the fact that, at max we can reach 1500 WD/MD (heard of 1300 MD, not sure if even higher) I will showcase in the next couple of paragraphs a graph resulting the specific solutions I'm providing for the WD/MD buffs.

    1st Proposal : Linear WD/MD Increase

    Code:
    Linear WD/MD Buff
    Weapon Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - WDEF * .9
    
    Magic Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - MDEF * .9
    Providing a constant linear increase to the WD/MD, proposes to give an almost 100% decrease of DMG based on the WD/MD given from gear.
    So with 1000 WD you'd be looking at a decrease of 900 DMG from Touch DMG.

    2nd Proposal : Logarithmic WD/MD Increase

    Code:
    Logarithmic WD/MD Buff
    Weapon Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - WDEF * .5 * LOG(WDEF+1)
    
    Magic Defense
    MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - MDEF *.5 * LOG(MDEF+1)
    
    Providing an increase over time given the gear equipped.
    One problem I've set to understand with this logarithmic increase is that, with a base 10 logarithm the MD increase would be too drastic.
    i.e. Looking at 1300 MD it would look like this
    Code:
     1300 MD
    Regular = 1300 * .5 = 650 Magic DMG reduction
    Linear = 1300 * .9 = 1170 Magic DMG reduction
    Logarithmic(10) = 1300 * .5 * LOG_10(1300+1) = 2024 Magic DMG reduction
    
    So by scaling the logarithmic base to 15 or 20 we would be looking at a more comprehensive reduction such as:
    Code:
     1300 MD
    Logarithmic(15) = 1300 * .5 * LOG_15(1300+1) = 1721 Magic DMG reduction
    Logarithmic(20) = 1300 * .5 * LOG_20(1300+1) = 1555 Magic DMG reduction
    
    Provided below are the DMG reductions based on the two proposals in comparison to the Regular formula.
    Note that, for WD the Log is base 10, for MD the Log is base 15.
    [​IMG]

    This solution would possibly cut away a requirement of 2000~2500 HP to be washes and will require people to gear up, grab higher LVL gears and to not min/max with bathrobes at higher LVLs.
    Rings, Rings and... Rings?

    Another second step back which I'm looking right now is the fact that, if not for Event specific rings we are generally looking at two different rings to support our HP increase.

    A Tier 10 Monsterbook ring (+1k HP) and Elling Ring (+100 HP)

    As previously suggested, and for which I hope the Staff / Editors are looking forward to implement, is the suggestion made by SkuireSkuire about a Quest ring (Thread mentioned https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/formal-proposal-questers-ring.29962/)

    But another, fourth possible ring (who even gets married am I right? f3) would possibly be tied to Job Advancements and/or possible LVL goals.

    An Advancement Ring which, will have possible 4 or 5 tiers, depending on how we want to look at it.

    The first 3 tiers will be relative simple, based on LVL 30, LVL 70 and LVL 120 which will be acquirable by completing a quest.

    During events we normally see quests which require you to kill monsters in the LVL range specific to your character... why can't we make a list of monsters which are arguably reasonable to be killed at those 3 LVL ranges and construct something as such :

    Code:
     Tier 1 Advancement Ring (LVL 30 required)
    Stats + 1 ALL
    HP + 200
    MP + 100
    
    Quest to Complete : 
    Kill 999 of 10 different monsters (in the LVL 25-40 range)
    Acquire 5 Jewels (pick whatever jewel)
    
    Code:
     Tier 2 Advancement Ring (LVL 70 required)
    Stats + 2 ALL
    HP + 400
    MP + 200
    
    Quest to Complete : 
    Kill 999 of 10 different monsters (in the LVL 65-80 range)
    Acquire 5 Jewels (pick whatever jewel)
    
    Code:
     Tier 3 Advancement Ring (LVL 120 required)
    Stats + 3 ALL
    HP + 600
    MP + 300
    
    Quest to Complete : 
    Kill 999 of 10 different monsters (in the LVL 110-130 range)
    Acquire 5 Jewels (pick whatever jewel)
    
    Code:
     Tier 4 Advancement Ring (LVL 150 required)
    Stats + 4 ALL
    HP + 800
    MP + 400
    
    Quest to Complete : 
    Kill some bosses (pick some bosses)
    Acquire 5 Jewels (pick whatever jewel)
    
    Code:
     Tier 5 Advancement Ring (LVL 175 required)
    Stats +5 ALL
    HP + 1000
    MP + 500
    
    Quest to Complete :
    Kill some bosses (harder ones)
    Acquire 5 Jewels (pick whatever jewel)
    

    This will mean that, possibly at a higher LVL you'll be required to wash a possible 750 ~ 1000 HP less.​


    I will leave everyone off with the note that, if both suggestions are taken into consideration it will be possible to look at something like
    ~1800 DMG reduction + 1000 HP increase = ~ 2800 HP less to wash

    ^ This will of course not be enough to cut away the 5k washing required for late end game with Pink Bean.

    Thanks for coming to my TEDx MapleLegends Talk, this was your host Motto, hope you have a great day.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 11
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  2. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    I’ve always been a fan of making def useful somehow just coz it benefits everybody equally. A third option could be reworking threaten in some way to give it a significant cut in damage received and hopefully give pally (kekw) some level of utility. I’d really prefer to not have more just straight HP boosted items since it helps some classes significantly more than others.
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
  3. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    That is the damage formula for players on monsters. Nise posted the formulas for monster damage on players on his formula sheet (they are much more in-depth than this). I still dont think we have the starting attack stat for many boss moves to get exact damage calculations yet, but there might be enough there to derive damage mitigation per w.def/m.def point.
     
  4. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Taking an inspiration out of how the christmas event pendant is handled, there can be different versions of rings (or whatever equips) that provide a differing amount of HP/MP bonus to suit each class.
     
    • Like Like x 3
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  5. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    This wouldn’t really solve my issue with HP items but it’s still a good idea. The main issue I have with HP items is a DK is still locked at a max of 16.5k HP just to do a viable amount of damage which class based boosts can’t solve. If defense was a useful stat and warriors could pick between an HP/def reward that’d be fine but it still requires a defense rework.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. OP
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    Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    Actually interesting to know this, I have never heard about those formulas.
    Might rework it all dependent on that, even if there is a RNG value in that (might use maximal dmg from the RNG)
     
  7. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    I think the curve for your wdef/mdef graph should be more convex (lower values for low level and much higher for high levels), something of an exponential curve. I think one of the main concerns raised with sku's quest ring was that wdef is only impactful early game, and giving a ton wdef early makes everything hit 1.

    Nise made a point once that all the end-game bosses strongest attack are usually magic attacks, and the damage mitigation from mdef is really terrible.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    they should just make it so your defenses give a % damage reduction based on how much you have with diminishing returns along with the tiny linear increase it also gives

    ex. if at 1000ish you get like 20% damage reduction that is probably almost enough to survive pink bean right
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    This is too much math for me to understand at 3am. But seems good.
    Just that, might need to fix the damage taken from monster into a non linear equation as well, instead of straight out reducing the damage by a flat number.
    If not, pretty much all mob will be dealing 1 1 1 1 1, after a zak helm and HTP. Idk, but imagine training at shaoling with 1 1 1 1 1 damage taken???
     
  10. OP
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    Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    Sadly the formula I'm basing it off is not correct, but theres some non-linearity with RNG in the formula.
    But at max, you might be seeing a decrease of maximum 1.5k ~ 2k DMG.
    Which might make Shaolin go down to like 300-400 DMG taken.
     
  11. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    The big HP barriers in this game for ranged classes are HT's leg attack, Vergamot's 3rd phase attacks, Toad's attacks and PB's fireball+DR. Of the five, HT's leg and PB's fireball are physical, Vergamot (I believe) has a mixture of both, DR is fixed damage (or at least, not reduced by any defense), and only Toad's attacks are purely magic. For melee characters the barriers are various touch damage (obviously physical) and Nameless's claw attack, which is physical as well. Physical defense matters far more than magic defense in ML, as far as having enough HP+def to not get one-shot by anything is concerned.

    The big reason why def is so bad at high level is because in the monster damage correlates to monster (magic) attack quadratically, but player defense only mostly linearly. There are ways that the formula can be tweaked to make it matter more at higher levels, but I'm not sure how feasible changing a formula directly in the game would be to the developers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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  13. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    turbo buff krexel and add untradeable krexel ring as drop ;)
     
  14. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Are the armor/magic armor skills/passives added into this Skal?

    Just wondering because a job like Magician has Magic Armor, Warrior has Iron Body, Spearman has Iron Will, Page has Threaten, Page along with Fighter have Power Guard so how would full HP warriors like BangHero be balanced into this?

    Also to note how would the ones that already HP washed get treated into this, would they have to remake?

    Would the ones that are still currently washing how it is now when this system does come into the game, how would they be treated in this system?

    This seems to be kind of broken towards the warrior class while the ones without skills to buffer themselves with armor/magic defense would they be deemed squishy?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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  15. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    I'd prefer if defense gave a % reduction because I don't want to see a situation where normal mobs hit 1s all the time and basically do no damage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I'd like to congratulate Motto on starting an HP wash thread and surviving with all constructive replies on the first page, without memes and arguments/bickering. Truly a marvel of a thread.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Some back of the envelope calculations for physical damage (for lvl 200):

    Code:
    Damage dealt = Physical Attack Damage^2 * rand(0.008, 0.0085) - WDEF*A - (WDEF - StandardPDD)*B
    
    Where:
    D (if CharacterLevel >= Mob Level) = 13/(13 + CharacterLevel - MobLevel)
    D (if Character Level < Mob Level) = 1.3
    
    C (for warriors) = STR/2800 + DEX/3200 + INT/7200 + LUK/3200
    C (for everyone else) = STR/2000 + DEX/2800 + INT/7200 + LUK/3200
    
    B (if your WDEF >= StandardPDD) = (C*28/45 + (CharacterLevel)*7/13000 + 0.196)
    B (if your WDEF < StandardPDD) = D * (C + (CharacterLevel)/550 + 0.28)
    
    A = C + 0.28
    HT mid head is ~1500 atk, PB is 1700 atk.
    The WDEF on my BM (with entire reverse set + HTP) is 665 and on my mage (with mostly lukless equips + HTP) is 474
    At lvl 200 with mw20, you will have around 1300-1400 total stats so C is 0.5 for warriors and 0.43 for other non-mage
    PDD is class specific but around 300-400 at lvl 100 (not sure about lvl 200, Nise's post doesn't say)
    B is ~0.6, A is ~0.75, D is like 0.25-0.4 (but isn't used)

    So the damage reduction is: 665*0.75 + (665 - 300)*0.6 = 717

    The hard part about changing this formula is that wdef are mostly constant for every mob. So getting any meaningful reduction on end game bosses (in the 1-2k range), would trivialize every grinding mob in the game (7F, ToT).

    Once suggestion would be to change the Physical Attack Damage^2 to:
    (Physical Attack Damage - 0.1*WDEF)^2 For bosses only. This is around 1.5-2k reduction on HT and PB touch

    Whatever similar change that is made here is going to completely change the balance between HTP (240 wdef) and MoN though. You would be getting more than 300 dmg reduction on HTP over MoN.
     
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  18. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    300 damage reduction & 300 hp it equals out though right?
     
  19. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Oh I mean for my proposed change for the boss damage formula which would mitigate an additional 500 dmg.

    Edit: calculated wrong number oops
     
  20. Quintarius
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    Quintarius Orange Mushroom

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    Dk's hex of the beholder skill also gives them 100wep def 100 mag def (doesn't stack with iron will)
    upload_2021-3-1_21-28-34.png
     
    • Informative Informative x 1

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