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Intentionally Spacing FM Stores

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Ainz, Mar 12, 2021.

  1. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Hi everyone!

    After repeatedly coming across a very annoying phenomenon and hearing from others that it frustrates their ML experience as well, I've decided that it was time to take this discussion from Discord to the forums.

    It's been becoming increasingly common for people to intentionally spread out their stores in a way that lets them hog the entirety of an FM room with fewer mules and preventing others from using this room.

    Disclaimer: I want to make it very clear that I am not talking about guilds/alliances/people that fill up an entire FM room with their stores. If they have enough merch to sell to warrant such a number of mules, be my guest. These stores (such as Beaters' FM room) are often spaced close together and fully warrant the number of stores they use.

    I understand that, on occasion, this can happen accidentally. Sometimes you're not paying attention to the position you open your store in and that's fine. However, when it's done intentionally (which is hard to prove, sure) I feel like it 100% falls under the definition of griefing.

    As for proving it; I think that when a certain sequence of very comparable IGNs/Store names are hogging an FM channel with almost carefully calculated amounts of spacing in between, it displays more than enough intent. This would exclude cases where it's a smaller number (1-2-3) of stores that just happen to be placed clunkily. I wouldn't want to start any absurdly tight rules relating to how tightly someone parks their store.

    As for why I consider it griefing, I have two reasons.
    First, by looking at the definition of griefing provided in the Terms of Service:

    3.4 Griefing - Griefing is a more specific case of harassment, which can be classified as in-game conduct that is intended to disrupt, obstruct, or sabotage another player's gameplay.


    When we look at store spacing as a concept, it is trivial to see that the player doing it does not benefit from this action. They merely obstruct the chances for other players to get access to an FM room. You could go on a tangent about whether or not reducing market competition is or is not griefing, but that leads me to my second point (also retrieved from the ToS thread)

    Examples of griefing include the following but are not limited to: kill stealing from mapowner, looting in another player's map (including Monster Book Cards, which is owned by mapowner), intentionally causing someone's death, filling an FM store with mules so other player's cannot access it, PQ sabotage, and scamming boss drop/cards in PQs or any other group activity.

    If we consider this griefing, I don't see why hogging an FM room would be any less malicious. The sole intention is to prevent other people from selling their merchandise and I personally find it toxic.

    Thanks for attending my TED-talk, I hope you enjoyed.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    Part of me agrees that when people do the placing store where 2 could fit is seem as griefing

    But then again when FM is open after a maintenance everyone is in a hurry
    (And i'm speculating i am not a merchant i usually end up putting my store in ch2 -ch3 so don't assume im talking about myself)

    When everyone is in a hurry i think people are more worried about placing their store as soon as possible rather than on the most efficient place like..
    I would've rather put my store and feel bad that i took 2 spaces than worry if i am giving 10 pixels to the next person while another opportunist takes the spot i was standing on, cuz when you see someone setting store and placing your store first where they were planning, i think that's a clearer way of griefing

    But i digress
    There's many situations, accident or not where placing your store may not be the way you and other merchants WANT it to be

    And while i do agree that is infuriating i dont think it can be easy to know who really is doing it intentionally or who is doing it by accident or by not knowing
    Besides FM store placement has no rules other than the game intended, there's no markers
    it's just a room with empty space
    Sadly as much as you or me or anyone wants, the ''best'' way to placing stores is no a hard rule, and it probably won't be enforced

    It's literally like manspreading, some people do it WIDELY on purpose others just do it moderately but stlil upsetting without knowing and it makes you mad that they're taking space
    But there's likely not gonna be a rule or a way to enforce them to not do it

    I'm going in circles and im ready for the disagreement reactions
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. OP
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    Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I fully understand your point and I hoped I addressed this in my post. I understand that some people (particularly those in a rush after reset/maint) don't think twice about the location of their store, and this is perfectly fine with me.

    That's why I dedicated a short paragraph to noting that this should (in my humblest opinion) only apply to cases where someone does it with a number of stores larger than let's say 5.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    In my personal opinion, there should be no significant gaps between stores after 24 hours have passed from maintenance. Your store has expired and you should be putting it back up closer to the next store. If you just keep taking huge space, I just consider you an ass hole. Plain and simple.

    That being said, I don't think this can be qualified as griefing and is way too difficult to enforce. There are 8 channels with 24 rooms each. Each room can hold a lot of stores. Most people search by owls. While it is disappointing being unable to get a shop open in FM 1, this in no way prohibits or obstructs your gameplay as you can still open a store and there are other ways to advertise that you are selling something.

    The section about using mules in a store means you are using your mules to enter someone's store, which has 3 slots, so that no one can view or purchase from the store. This is directly obstructing their gameplay.

    In the end I feel like people spreading out their stores are greedy and rude, but this would be far too difficult for staff to try to enforce and far too difficult to prove intent that nothing will be done about it.
     
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  5. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    I've mentioned this before in a different way and all I got was "You can just move over to a different FM room" and "its first come first serve" with a "Thats not grieving its Free Market"

    I've mentioned a certain SOMEONE sniping spots and got the replies above.

    This would be the same thing sadly, its annoying and I've seen someone say "park like asian" in a shop..
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    This.

    1 0 0 %
     
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  7. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    While I fully understand where you're coming from I don't think this is in any way a needed rule and will only give issues with enforcement of it.

    I think Pepper hits the nail on its head with the reply and covers everything that should be said about this.

    As long as there are spots in the FM this is not yet a problem that should be looked at.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    This could be issue if we're packed for all 8 channels, ~22 rooms, with shops, so you can't set your shop anywhere, but it's not true.

    If you're trying to restrict others with setting their shop, on purpose of your getting spot for some 'noticiable' spots, like 1-3 or so, I'd say it's also griefing, in your logic, because it obviously griefs other guys effort for getting nice spot, for your greed. Reason they got and you dind't get is, just, they were faster and put more effort than you. first come, first serve.

    Which you feel bad doesn't satisfy condition of griefing.

    And most of us use owl mule anyway
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. OP
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    Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    You don't have to space your stores like a jackass to be first though. I already addressed twice that this post isn't about people who place their stores in a clunky way in the post-maint rush.

    Any buffoon with a decent internet connection and intentions to get a FM1-1/2/3 spot can do so. That's not the point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2

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