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Buccaneer - ST and Energy Orb & more

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Lynx, Jun 21, 2021.

  1. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    6:27 PM
    TBH, even though buccs are better in single target bossing, the misrepresentation that buccs can do well in cleave actually helps to get recruited in cwk more..
    There is just way too many options for single target killing mage.
    If you gonna keep emphasize buccs are not cleave, it just gonna hurts them from being recruited T_T
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    2:27 PM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    No, what I did was estimate the time to barrel as ~1330 ms (if you read my method its a sum of barrel cast time + keystroke reaction time; I do not know the exact time for barrel). This replaces the standard barrage cast time of 1830 ms. Now add the cast time(s) of the finishing chain (dragonstrike, orb, etc.)

    E.g. Barrage+Barrel+Dragon strike combo for 1 mob
    In one combo the total damage output = 2800% + 810% = 3610%
    Time to cast one combo = 1330 ms + 1080 ms = 2410 ms
    But wait, barrage-to-barrage delay is 2630 ms. So the actual combo cannot be repeated faster than 2630 ms.
    Then DMG (%) per sec is: 3610%/2.630 s = 1373%/s

    If you wanna know how many combos you can fit in 1 min, just take floor(1 min/combo cast time). You'll find that 22 is the maximum amount you can fit in under a min due to barrage delay.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. OP
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    Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    Heh, well like I said, we CAN duo cleave with warriors just like shads can, but it does not mean that our class is designed as "cleave bossers".
    Just pointing out that buccs are more ideal for single target.
    Ppl always "R> NL / Sair for range", when buccs also fit the same role.
    Long story short, we can kinda do both, but more ideal for single target das all
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Ya, I get those, but since you said you ran dummy test, was just wondering if u are doing 23 combos in all of them.. (for those barrel tricks)
    23 instead of 22 is because your barrage should hit before the dpm result returns (since all damage is done at the moment you cast skill)
    My estimation for barrel is actually 1500ms, but I'm in EU, so shit ping might affect me..
    If some of your barrel trick doesnt end up with 23 combos, it should result in lower dpm I think, cause the major damage proportion comes from barrage.
     
  5. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Buccaneer
    I see your point. Yes this could inflate some measured dpm numbers during @dpm 1 but even the slowest combo (barrage+barrel+orb+drain) still fits 22 combos plus some fraction. So any combo measured with @dpm 1 should all be biased by 1 extra barrage at the end. Moreover, its one extra barrage out of 22 combos; the effects of the extra barrage is pretty small and you can do a longer @dpm test to make it totally negligible.

    Anyway, the reason why I reported the numbers in DPS(%/s) is to avoid this extra barrage bias entirely. I just double-checked at dummies just to make sure my barrel cast time estimate was okay.
     
  6. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    I think you're underestimating the effect of an extra barrage..
    Why this is so is because the different combos allow for 1 extra combo in 1 minute.. Barrage + DS gives 21 combo, Barrage + Drainx2 gives 22 combo, while Barrage + Barrel + DS gives 23 combo..
    For example, the reason for Barrage + Drainx2 being better than Barrage + DS is indeed because of that 1 extra barrage at the end despite Drainx2 has lower % than DS.
    Another point you mentioned of longer @dpm is not relevant because our untransform time is only 1 minute, so 1 minute is all that matters and how you should maximise it.. any time you spend not in transform is an even bigger dpm lost..

    Again, back to the question, are you doing 23 combos in your dummy test? (or 22 combo + 1 barrage to be technically correct)
     
  7. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    Oh I see your point. You want to min-max down to the last ms and immediately ST. In my dpm measurement I didn't count the total combos; I can check again doing so.

    I ran through the numbers again now summing the DPM over total full combos + any remaining chain that can be added without extending 1 min. Barrage+Barrel+Orb+Drain should be ~8% stronger than Barrage+Barrel+Dragonstrike. However, this is based on my approximation of barrel cast time and these numbers are very sensitive to this if you wanna account for the dmg from the remaining chain.
     
  8. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    For CWK, honestly the best way to utilize the bucc might be to have him solo the mage while the range all teams up on pirate. I've been out of cwk for ages so I've not seen it first hand, but I know some squads have been experimenting with this. Bucc has no issues pinning mage (though if he's just now getting to demo, it might not be high enough demo lines) and pirate has a lower kb than mage for NLs+archer to pin (15k). A issue with most cleaves and buccs is their inability to hit the pirate without inducing massive iframes on the pirate, slowing down the end of the fight, especially if cleaves finish first. Killing pirate first will mean that mage is left at the end, and all cleaves (minus pally and i/l) can contribute to that.

    If the bucc is actually sent to cleave, itll severely limit their effectiveness. It's still a workable pivot, but most buccs wont do it effectively. As you've noticed, barrage and demolition are meaningless unless it happens to be targeted on thief. Uneven damage distribution on the others is wasted damage especially with a hero that would brandish that damage anyways. I think things like shad Nate and possibly even pally non-ice charge can fall into this trap as well, where the "effective damage" is not as high as listed dpm. Effective cleave options for bucc are ds+ssk->ds->blast or snatch (unlike other posters my snatch dpm is actually an increase, perhaps differences in jump cast/positioning/avoid?).

    If at all possible, buccaneer wants to be on mage for as long as possible, but is capable of secondary cleave dpm support if it comes to it. Just dont barrage/demo cleave bosses that are not thief.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    The reason I'm asking the 23 combos is because despite what you said for Barrage+Barrel+Orb+Drain and also Barrage+Barrel+Drainx3, it doesn't actually give higher dpm because you lose out the number of barrage.. Unless you can hit 23 barrages which I can't on those combos then I'll probably fault that to shitty ping T_T
    You should at least get 23 barrages for Barrage+Barrel+DS which I can do.. that's the maximum barrages from barrage delay in 1 minute.
    If you don't get 23 barrage in before dpm result returns, your dpm test gonna be kinda inconsistent. (in terms for barrel tricks)
    And I think anything below 23 barrage should have lower dpm due to barrage being way superior than any other complementing skill.
     
  10. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    yes, I never put bucc into cleave after 1st experience of duo cleaving w/ bucc, when I form team in general (because I have SI mule anw, and it's torturous for me and bucc together, to use that tactics). but my team has 2 NLs, and I don't want to kick them for ideal class cherrypicking, that made stuffs complicated and that's reason I had to seek method with putting bucc into cleave. it was inevitable.

    I'd say, bucc is trickster who can make not bad result in whatever position. that's what I think about bucc.

    Cleave needs SI so bucc should be in cleave - is a trap which amatuers fall into easily, imo. that's why I still use SI mule regardless there's bucc or not. don't want to bother them delivering SI for myself.

    archers would heavily disagree on this. because we all hate shark waves. #puppet

    that's why I write 'R>mage hitter' when I try to recruit, instead of 'R>range'. I even had 4-cwkpq run which I put DK as mage hitter because shad was stronger than DK in cleave-wise and DK was able to pin mage. hahaha
     
  11. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    We're splitting hairs but I'll include my numbers in here. Again, this is largely dependent on what you approximate as barrel cast time. My math is in the spoiler so it doesn't clutter the thread (which I think is already too late lol, sry Lynx). I didn't show triple drain since I never use it.

    I'll check if i can fit 23 barrages for both combos at dummies.

    Working numbers:
    • Barrage+Barrel: 2800% dmg, 1330 ms (cast time replaced by barrel)
    • Dragon strike: 810% dmg, 1080 ms
    • Energy orb: 900% dmg, 930 ms
    • Drain: 360% dmg, 450 ms
    • Barrage delay: 2630 ms
    Barrage+Barrel+Dragonstrike:
    • One combo: 3610% dmg, 2630 ms
    • # of full combos in 1 min: 22
    • Remaining time: 2140 ms
    • Extra possible skill (w/o going over 1 min): Barrage
    • Total DPM (%/1000): 82.22
    Barrage+Barrel+Orb+Drain:
    • One combo: 4060% dmg, 2710 ms
    • # of full combos in 1 min: 22
    • Remaining time: 380 ms
    • Extra possible skill (w/o going over 1 min): None
    • Total DPM (%/1000): 89.32
    Dividing the two DPMs shows that Orb+Drain combo is 8.6% better than Dragonstrike.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Unless your NLs sit and watch the archer solo pirate after mage, this is a laughably moot point. Theyll get sharked at some point of the fight regardless. A bm might have a slightly worse time of it due to starting/stopping hurricane, but an mm already has to jump through hoops to get the puppet down correctly in the first place. A kb from sharks knocks away from the boss, a favorable kb easier to reposition after than if it knocked towards the boss, and NL never gets hit anyways.

    If you dont want to recruit "optimal" classes, something has to give. Buccaneer cwk cleave dpm is nowhere near the best utilization of the class.
     
  13. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    ugh dude, reason why archer do pirate is..puppet can MUTE pirate and make him sandbag, but this requires archers soloing....
    would be tragedy if pirate gets mad whole the run and spam shark/jump/dispel around.

    reason why pirate is so calm is, because archer takes his aggro for whole run and control pirate with puppet, not because they pin pirate. if other ranges hit pirate from opening stage, i'm sure BM/MM will mad on him, for sure.

    I DO KNOW bucc is ideal for single-target and try my best to put them on their ideal position, but 'let all ranges hit pirate from opening' is just another matter, and..... completely can't understable imo.

    or, am I missing something?
     
  14. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    The pirate dispel has a close range. It can be outranged by any range. The pirate has a long double slam attack that gives him iframes, only useable when somebody is within melee range. The pirate has a jump gun attack that can make some attacks miss, useable when somebody is in close range. The pirate has a shark toss that has no added effects other than a kb away from him.

    The reason archers have complained about others attacking in the past is it breaks puppet aggro and ruins "muh meta afk hurricane multiclient". Pirate is a problem if its left to roam, yes, but between 2 NLs and an MM if it roams you need new runners. Such a range heavy comp is going to inevitably have a large pirate hp pool after mage goes down, and you'll get sharked anyways. And now you'll have to have the bucc pivot to cleave where he is much less effective than an NL that gets sharked.

    I'd value an archer opinion (both bm/mm) much more than yours frankly, but coming from a Buccaneer viewpoint it is wildly inefficient. I'm not posting this for your sake, you are far too stubborn for that, but for those that can see the larger picture of the fight.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    I think for your composition, Hero + Bucc + 2NL + MM, the real question you want to ask is whether do you want a faster run or want someone to have a somewhat nicer run?
    I'm assuming the limiting factor will be cleave bosses since there is only 1 Hero doing damage, so if you want to optimised for faster run, buccs will be placed on cleave, no point killing mage and pirate so quickly just so that NL and MM suffer in cleave boss.
    If you want to give someone a somewhat nicer gameplay, like Buccs to optimal their damage then sure go hit the mage, but it will inevitably end up someone suffering later on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    no, my MM kills pirate faster than bucc+NL+NL team kill mage...... even if mage goes down earlier than pirate, i'd let ranges beside MM help cleave rather than pirate so archers can enjoy calm moments more. also I don't want torture my archer gets struggled for shark wave from opening. ofc, if pirate remains as last, I order all the range hit pirate together, but I can't understand why it's ideal to do DPM together from opening stage. again I'm really trying to understand your tactics, I'm trying, because this game is tons of thing to learn even after playing years, but still can't understand why it's good to get tortured by shark wave spam from opening. please, teach this noob.

    in general, we form MM->pirate / bucc+NL+NL->mage / hero+@ -> cleave, cleave bosses go down first, and pirate down, mage remains as last. Currently it's overburden for me to solo cleave, so recruiting 1 more cleave to help me. but once NLs can pin mage, going to move bucc into cleave so I don't need to recruit extra cleave anymore.
     
  17. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Buccaneer
    Anyway, back to the topic of this thread RE: changes to energy orb. I propose we rename energy orb into energy bomb and change the sprite animation into this:
    spiritbomb.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 4
  18. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    In that sense, I think you just need a new bucc+NL+NL o.o
    3 characters and still not have higher dpm than a MM begs the question.. how much int do they have? gg
     
  19. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    friendship, makes stuffs complicated. I wished to help them. (and I wrote this clearly from my 1st post! still huge thanks for jaewonnie, you got my point and gave me perfect answer <3). ofc, I do know I can run 4men very easily (and I do also, that, everyday with my DK) if I fire all 3 friends and replace with pog mage hitter. I don't want to.

    cmon, I do know 4men is much easier to manage because I can even use 2 slots for mule, which means requires much less kick/inv manipulation, pog exp, and pog reward. but that wasn't what I was asking. sorry.
     
  20. OP
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    Lynx
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    Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

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    When I attack mage boss and cleave needs SI, I just move over to SI them whenever timer runs out. can time it pretty nicely with ST duration so you dont lost on main damage uptime.
    Contrary to popular belief, you CAN move in this game xD
     

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