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Discussion on balance changes to sweeping.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dimez, Jun 17, 2021.

  1. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Yea but I was giving an example of what happens when we have optional patches :p Still doesn't change the fact people don't use them, meaning it'll just be a mess if it's not all in one proper fix.
     
  2. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    You are doing a great job staff.. i personally never like the idea of these "sweeper" mules anyway it was ridiculous to begin with. The fact that we can multi client on this server is generous enough as it is and that is perfectly fine with me.

    The salty people are really just the ones who took the time and effort to make sweeper mules so I can understand the initial frustration but you have to expect private servers to have ongoing changes year to year.
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Jaynus
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    Jaynus Timer

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    Sounds like a casual trying hard to not get FOMO
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  4. NOCAP
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    NOCAP Mano

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    I just want to touch on the point about professionalism because I sincerely believe if that’s the image they are trying to cultivate they have failed massively in many aspects.

    There’s countless examples of staff even in this thread just constantly shitposting and memeing in serious threads. Half of Nise’s posts in this thread are him responding to porlporl about a completely unrelated issue that has to do with event resets, poking fun at him and then making fun of him with people in discord. This is just 1 example. Last month I think we saw Mirrors take a similar approach with a Meso journal to mock another user here on the forums by pretending to make a casual journal that received all of 2 updates in order to poke fun at the expense of our favorite ulu1 abuser. You can’t have your cake and eat it to; I see staff constantly complaining about toxicity in these threads but they go a long way in bringing it upon themselves. This has been mentioned many times but Nise especially comes off as condescending and arrogant; he very rarely listens to what anyone else is saying and he takes every opportunity to write long walls of text that have very little substance or meaning. I think jesscapadesjesscapades has pointed this out before and even then he seems to refuse to change his attitude and you can’t blame players for being frustrated by that.

    Outside of all that, I just want to say at the end of the day, there will always be some players who are upset by changes and other who use it as an opportunity to laugh in these peoples faces. Just look at this thread; it’s absolutely disgusting. You have players taunting staff members. You have players who don’t use mages commenting just to say I never played mages and haha sucks to be you guys get over it. You have staff literally trolling in half their posts. This is a complete and utter shit show and I hope we can all look at this and maybe just act better moving forward.

    If you don’t have meaningful input and have no experience with the changes and want to make fun of people maybe just don’t? If you want to voice your frustration with staff maybe keep it respectful and don’t just post a ton of angry comments that aren’t going to help your case or cause.
     
    • Agree x 7
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  5. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    As opposed to hardcore players trying hard not to admit they wasted their time?
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
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  6. Pixel
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    Pixel Mixed Golem

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    Is just the nature of abusing something that shouldn't be
    Sweeper mules aren't intended
    SI mules aren't intended
    Dex Avoid buccaneers aren't intended

    What i dislike the most of this community sadly is that most players will use the defense of ''but what about the time old players put into X'' whenever some change for the better health of the game happens, because they spent time to exploit or in a nicer term, to just take advantage of it.

    As one of ML's major complainers, i understand the reason many changes can't happen the way ~~I~~ want them to be
    I often joke about mages having their Ults nerfed, but we all know that's a too drastic of change, too custom for the game to be.

    HP washing , being easier, would make the greed of more HP bigger, as well as nullifying the major reason to vote, besides the occasional pet item refresh, there's no reason to vote other than Owls and AP resets.

    But there's some changes in the game that were taken out of context.
    Multiclienting was mostly implemented, because while having multiple characters wasn't intended AT ALL, it was already being used lightly by people with multiple computers, this only leveled up the field evenly, mostly for HB and HS mules, it has devolved into a meta where mages could just extra-maximize their earnings, the game has turned into basically mulestory at this moment, which i THINK, the mods want to put under control.

    While everyone is upset, this affecting heavily the economy is that it wasn't meant to happen, and why now more than other cases
    Because this was a more ''free'' decision
    No one could complain about SI on bishops because they all had to humbly agree that Mages never were intended to use SI , is not the game design
    Dex Bucss were not how it was meant to be played

    And it seems arbirtrary that having another ''legit'' character to loot mesos and increase them as well, would be nerfed right? No bugged skill or broken mechanic, except there IS, the mechanic of multiclienting itself, taken to an extreme

    Now i continue to spin like a monke
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. randomhs
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    randomhs Timer

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    it's hilarious the irony in your statement that those aspects of the game weren't intended, yet changing how looting works is inherently changing the game into ways that were not intended. I think it's even more sad that some players would undermine the validity of other player's discontent, simply because they have a hard-headed belief of how the game should be played, and anyone who disagrees is a "cry baby".

    also the fact that posts have to be deleted and players have to get smega banned (which seemed quite unwarranted) to get a response from Staff is, for lack of a better word, yikes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
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  8. Jaynus
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    Jaynus Timer

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    Its only sweepers. Not much time went into making them
     
  9. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    If this is actually the case, I'd just like to say I do sincerely apologize to anyone who felt this way. I didn't realize some of the things I said came across as condescending, and esp with the Porl stuff, I was genuinely asking him a question, and was genuinely asking for help from others so that I could better understand him. For those who have talked to me on VC, I'm quite giggly and not a super serious individual. I'm just a very (very very very) wordy nerd :pepehands:

    The long posts aren't done to be condescending or trying to be showboaty, I'm just trying to put down all my ideas with their explanations AND (on occasion) give some insight as to the discussions that took place in the team (without leaking/revealing anything). The reason these posts started in like 2018 (?) was because people mentioned frequently they felt a disconnect between staff & community as staff didn't reply to anything period. At least with some more engagement from myself & balance team, we hoped to patch this up. I thought, despite the frustration players might feel, this was still a step forward in the right direction.

    I guess, unfortunately, it can come across as quite disingenuous. Maybe since it sounds like we're always repeating the same thing or not really getting into the details of things. But, I'm honestly doing the best I can - as a person & staff member :( If it's not enough, I apologize to the community :(

    I've been reading every single one of the replies in the various threads that pop up, I relay them to the team, try to have discussions about it, and in turn come up with possible solutions to the concerns raised. But, change isn't something that can happen over night and I want everyone to understand that. Even with the sweeper changes, it wasn't something that was shoehorned in at the very last moment. It was in the works for months and tested before it was released. We do hear everyone's concerns, and when I say we're working on it, it's not just some bs customer service phrase that I'm telling you, as we do absolutely nothing. I literally spend my whole day thinking at work at how to solve the problems you guys have mentioned, and I'm not even kidding T-T

    But either way, if ANYONE felt offended or condescended from my posts, I really am sorry. I don't mean it and I try my best to sound neutral and be diplomatic with things. So I hope you understand, from the bottom of my heart. :heartbeat:
     
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  10. Jaynus
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    Is it possible for a test server to be opened up for players to help staff test the changes? And to provide feedback
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    wew. This *slightly* brings me back to 2016 Legends when it comes to the forums. Nostalgic. Even the omg censorship post(s).

    When you post here just to shitpost, we are going to delete your post. When you are going to constantly shout on the forums and scream that the changes are bad, it's not going to be rushed to be reverted or anything. We do things with data, we do things by observation, and we do things with discussion.

    We are not "ignoring" the complaints, you just can't see what we discuss behind the scene. Yes, we are aware the major complaint right now is the game looks buggy because of the meso visual problem of people unable to pick up the mesos. Just because we are aware of it, doesn't mean we magically have a fix for it 2 seconds later. Everything has to be coded, and we are pushing all fixes for the recent anniversary/buff overhaul as you saw on the recent maintenance threads.

    I have said this since 2016, but I am going to say it again. Do not shit post to get a message across - It does not work. No, do not give the excuse that you "care" about the server as a reason to shit post, just don't. There are absolutely zero reasons to EVER shit post, and it does absolutely nothing in helping you get something you want to be reverted or changed. All that happens is that you get your post removed, and restrictions on your posting/reacting abilities if it continues. Spamming the game with constantly the same messages also gets you SMEGA muted. Again, spamming over and over does NOT suddenly get you something changed.

    This is the reason why some people are just not willing to talk here and have different opinions - they are afraid they are going to be bombed by the people that share something else, so they rather just DM me / the staff instead with their thoughts on some things. Again, that doesn't mean we ignore the ones complaining though

    TL;DR
    - We do read all posts
    - We delete shit posts (omg muh censorship)
    - Gathering a group of people to spam us to revert something does not magically make us revert the thing
    - We do discuss how we can improve things every day or tweak an already existing change to be better

    Thanks and happy mapling.
     
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  12. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    don't worry about it nise. imo you are doing a great job in providing certain insights on what staffs have in mind, even tho its not complete.

    also do note this is not your part-time job, but you are doing it as good as a full-time job, with $0 per month pay
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  13. aussietinask
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    aussietinask Horny Mushroom Retired Staff

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    Pretty much every valid idea that hasn’t been made to flame has been discussed in staff. The idea that staff are ignoring people is untrue, but a lot of it is behind the scenes.

    Also, one of the bigger head scratchers in life is how I can get ahold of nise within 10 minutes if he’s at work, but much less if he’s off work. Confirmed that his full time job is ML and I’m convinced whatever he does is fully secondary. The fact that we can’t make changes immediately is frustrating for us, but balancing time zones and work schedules is tough.

    We’re trying our best to come up with solutions, and we are discussing a lot.

    There’s a couple very valid concerns in this thread, and we are discussing those. There’s a lot of puzzle pieces that we try to fit together when discussing so we are trying to keep all those in mind. I just wrote like 1k+ words of thoughts on balance in staff and I actually wanted to write 2-3 times more, but wanted to start discussion. A lot of the 1k Words I didn’t even go into detail because they were already being discussed in real time with staff. Trust me, we are discussing xD

    I agree that I haven’t been professional this thread. But it can be hard to be professional when there are personal attacks flying around (both to and from me, which I apologized for), and also just general trolling with posts that don’t offer discussion or feedback. We’re all human, and it definitely makes me empathize more with the waiter who spits in the soup - it’s obviously wrong but sometimes it’s tough haha

    overall is, we are trying our best, some things we can’t announce but are working on, and we are humans who are trying their best. It can be a vicious cycle when both sides feed into each other’s frustration, and I can definitely feel the frustration of being staff now and am consciously working on managing those emotions to not feed fuel to the fire
     
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  14. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I do think it's important that the community is vocal about their thoughts and is able to take a stance against unwanted change and while shitposting might not be something we should be doing it can however bring some joy to us in these dark times of generating mesos whilst prices are still on the rise.

    I hope a proper solution can be found eventually and that we'll get to hear the reasoning and the intend behind it or that Staff is willing to take the L when no proper solutions can be found.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  15. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    The fact that the staff thinks the smegas were somehow organized just shows how little they think of the players that are actually upset about this change.

    Also, how are you guys really that surprised we think you guys are condescending? Youre tired of the shit posts? How about stop giving us this emoji:p whenever you have a response to a question?

    I appreciate you guys telling us you guys are having real discussions, I really do. But it feels like you guys are only having these discussions because people are rioting, and I dont think this is the way changes should be implemented because it shows you guys probably never even had any real discussions before implementing this change to begin with.

    Its funny how you guys ask us for feedback on Deep Ludi teleporters, but not on things like this, the things that really matter.
     
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  16. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    It's an obvious case of people reacting to others that are smegaing about it
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  17. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    It was not in our posts implied it was organized. We are simply stating that spamming SMEGA's in-game get you muted, not only planned ones. Sometimes I really think I have to phrase things like a 12 years old so people understand it.
     
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  18. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Its not implied?
     
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  19. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    By smegaing in-game, you encourage others to spam with you. You gather people to SMEGA (and spam SMEGA) the very same thing back. I am sorry, the next time I will write (Gathering) so it's not just "gathering" but also 'a group of people' aka a group of people SMEGAing in-game begging us to revert the change...
     
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  20. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    I never asked people to spam with me. They chose to spam with me because they prbly dont like the change. The problem is when you guys start banning everyone that even smega'd it. You guys might as well start banning people that turn level 200, because they encourage smega spam too. Fuck it, ban their friends that smega GZ to them as well :p
     
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