1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

2021 Anniversary Event MapleLegends Balancing Pulse Check

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by joota, Jul 5, 2021.

  1. joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    The Balance Road Map: Post-Anniversary 2021 is getting some heated discussion about where different classes stand especially since the CWK exchange for White Scrolls was recently released, so I'd love to get another pulse check to gauge the community's thoughts on different classes.

    If you're interested, please fill out this form:
    https://forms.gle/uLybxwqqgb24NTPx5

    After I get a number of responses, I'll summarize the results with pretty figures! SlimeSmile
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Caenyss
    Offline

    Caenyss Capt. Latanica

    391
    71
    278
    Jan 30, 2018
    Male
    Lisbon
    11:39 AM
    Caenyss
    Bowmaster
    177
    Section 2 and 3 assumes I know about every class, but I only play Bowmaster. There should be an "I don't know" or "Not applicable" option.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    Modified so none of the rows are required. You can just leave them blank if you don't know or care!
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  4. Motto
    Offline

    Motto Skelegon

    1,068
    1,139
    428
    Jun 30, 2018
    Male
    Mars
    12:39 PM
    PogShad Motto
    Islander
    201
    I did it, but I'm sad there's no Islander.
    Bossing, Solo Play, Gridning and exchange quest are a solid 10/10 on it.
     
  5. Discor
    Offline

    Discor Slimy

    247
    36
    230
    Nov 29, 2017
    Male
    1:39 PM
    I/L Arch Mage
    160
    NANI
    can't wait for the results.

    P.s i wager most will say nerf mages.....
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  6. geospiza
    Offline

    geospiza Web Developer Staff Member Web Developer

    212
    449
    215
    Apr 16, 2020
    4:39 AM
    geospiza
    Dark Knight
    146
    Funk
    There's an intimidating number of questions on the survey from the N classes x M questions. I'm not sure there will be a large enough sample size for each of the classes (but I also haven't looked at the results of previous community surveys if any).

    It could be easier to fill in and interpret the results of ranking each class instead of scoring each one on a scale, e.g., rank each class by their bossing ability where 1 is the best and 12 is the worst. The analysis may be more involved, though. I would certainly be interested in seeing the subjective top-3 and bottom-3 classes by attribute.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. s0mething
    Offline

    s0mething Capt. Latanica

    307
    46
    268
    May 4, 2019
    4:39 AM
    LF>Balancing Pulse Check Bingo Card
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. Skuire
    Offline

    Skuire Nightshadow

    631
    1,089
    380
    Aug 16, 2017
    5:39 AM
    Skucci
    Shadower
    I feel like I should have received $5 for completing this survey. :confused:
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    You will be rewarded with the gift of information SlimeGrin
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    Please feel free to comment on more things you'd like to see!

    I do think whether a class needs change for a certain attribute and whether they are good/bad at it aren't necessarily the same, so I'll definitely present figures for both!
     
  11. jesscapades
    Offline

    jesscapades Pac Pinky

    176
    72
    196
    Jun 24, 2019
    Female
    7:39 AM
    jesscapades
    Shadower
    182
    Homies
    This is awesome, thanks for doing this Joot!

    My general feedback would be that the survey is a little long, and might detract people from submitting. But I definitely agree that there are differences between all of the questions, so it’s difficult to balance the tradeoff between the survey reach and the survey scope. Having some kind of demographic question might be helpful to check that this isn’t a big issue and that there’s at least some diversity in the responses. One demographic question that comes to mind is asking how long the player has been in the server.

    My second comment is to recommend including questions about content, as the content available for each class is closely tied to whether the class should be buffed/nerfed. For example, I think F/Ps are dogshit when it comes to bossing, but only because like half of all bosses are poison immune. So I don’t necessarily think F/Ps should be buffed, just the content.

    These are just nitpicks though! I’m confident the data will be useful and interesting. I’m betting on pally for worst class :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,669
    1,081
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    12:39 PM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    I can already feel the corsair nerf nerds coming :(
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. iPippy
    Offline

    iPippy Nightshadow

    655
    340
    345
    May 19, 2019
    Male
    7:39 AM
    iPippy
    When it comes to survey length, amount of content per page goes a long way imo. Cant say it would work in this specific situation, but I do agree with geospiza; if there were a series of questions like "which class is better for grinding: hero or paladin?", we could build a relative hierarchy of answers. It also helps to realign personal bias in averages. My definition of "6" might be somebody else's 7. That said, similar surveys that do that also keep content to one quick question per page to not completely overwhelm users (I doubt Google can do that well tho).

    In terms of content: only thing that really stood out to me is solo play. Do we count solo play with mules, or bona fide single character play? That would have definitely changed responses.
     
  14. RegalStar
    Offline

    RegalStar Nightshadow

    646
    243
    345
    Sep 23, 2019
    Male
    7:39 AM
    DMsRebirth
    The way I chose to interpret the categories is something like this: bossing relates to only dpm, since utility is listed as a separate category; exchange quest also includes card hunting and other general mob killing activity where people are killing weaker mobs and not confined to a small horizontal room, and solo play is just an amalgation without cross class buffs since solo play is not really an activity category so much as an activity modifier (solo bossing, solo grinding, etc.).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    I'm happy to let everyone decide for themselves how to interpret the question. I can go into details for everything but like y'all mentioned already, the survey is already pretty long. I think it'll be great to have these kinds of pulse surveys every few months, maybe with differing topics. Anyone else is welcome to start another thread in about it in the future SlimeGrin

    Also update: I've gotten 30 responses so far and the responses are starting to look less random (who knew there's actually a lot of alignment within the community? SlimeXD)! I'm aiming for 50 responses and then I'll start sharing all the results.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    Here's a little preview...

    upload_2021-7-5_17-56-39.png

    I think it's obvious here NLs need a huge nerf to their grinding skills
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    693
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    8:39 PM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    I'd like to echo the concerns above from the other players:
    • Ambiguous questions & terms
      • The term "balanced" and "unbalanced". When we say unbalanced are we talking about how they're just broken? Or are we saying that they need help because they're not balanced?
      • In terms of the categories:
        • For "bossing", Regal talks about how bossing could relate to DPM, but even then, there's a huge variety of bosses such as cleave (CWK and HT), area bosses, and single target bosses. The state of a class could vary highly based on each type of boss, and coming to an "average" 1-5 number rating at the end could be pretty arbitrary. It would be much more interesting to see a break down on the different types of bosses and see where certain classes might need more help in.
        • Solo play = complete echo of what regal said.
      • Ambiguity leads to respondent confusion, which in turn could affect the objectivity of a survey's results.
    • Uncertainty as to why each category was chosen
      • What qualifies "solo play" as a category and not "party play"?
      • Why does the CWK exchange quest get its own category and not card hunting?
      • Why is there no category encompassing non-endgame activities?
      • By including certain categories and not others, it's possible that the survey unintentionally and subconsciously directs respondents to think a certain way and undermines the objectivity of results.
    • Inefficient use of the 7 point Linkert Scale
      • The goal of a Linkert scale (1 - 7) is so that respondents can specify their level of agreement vs. disagreement with something.
        • 1: Strongly disagree
        • 2: Moderately disagree
        • 3: Mildly disagree
        • 4: Neutral
        • 5: Mildly agree
        • 6: Moderately agree
        • 7: Strongly agree
      • Based on the current system, there's no neutral answer that 4 is attached to. Couple this with the potential of "extreme responding", where certain respondents are more likely to respond with extremes on scales (1 or a 7, rather than choosing stuff in the middle), we could see an exaggeration of data because of the lack of a "neutral" ground to cut off the extremes.
      • To be more clear about people's opinions (since thats the goal of a survey), it might be a better idea to alter the current scale of 1 - 7 so "1" stands for underwhelming (too weak) and "7" stands for overwhelming (too strong). This would allow people to put down a "4" if they believe the class is balanced.
      • To give an example of why a 1 - 7 of "unbalanced" vs "balanced" could be problematic:
        • (Eg) Grinding for a Shad could be listed as a "1" and so can Bowmasters. For Shads that might be because they're too good, and for Bowmasters it might be because they're too bad. However, as both of them are listed as "1", it becomes quite misleading.
        • To get any useful insight, it would require the surveyor to attach their own implications/deductions to the data.
    • Ditching of the 7 point Linkert Scale
      • I'm not sure what distinguishes the last page (where it suddenly becomes a 1 - 3 scale) and the rest of the survey (which was a 1 - 7 scale). Surely whether something needs buffs or nerfs can't be so cut and dry right? Due to the various degrees something needs buffs/nerfs should also be shown on a 1 - 7 scale, so we know just how much of a buff or nerf a certain class might need.
      • (Eg) If people say Paladins need a buff for bossing, is it the same degree that Heroes need a buff for bossing?
    A good survey is one that is able objectively assess the opinions of its respondents, through clear and unbiased questions (not saying this was done intentionally, but a survey can be set up in a way that unintentionally includes bias). Just a good link for anyone who wants quick rundown of what to look out for when making surveys:
    https://resources.pollfish.com/survey-guides/survey-bias-your-ultimate-guide/

    There's other guides out there + lengthy research articles about this, but this one seemed the most aesthetically pleasing and easy to read.

    That said, I'm fairly curious what the responses would be~
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  18. Alyosha
    Offline

    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

    924
    635
    413
    Mar 9, 2017
    4:39 AM
    Dostoevsky
    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    Does all that mean we'll get an official survey?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    I'm just here to gauge whether people think there needs to be some change or not. I'll leave it up to the balance team to figure out why and how changes need to be made? :p

    7 point Likert Scales are very common in the psychology literature. You're welcome to do the research on why. And even if it was not common, this is a community pulse, not a research paper :p

    I have the status of jobs for different aspects and whether they need a buff or nerf or no change as different sections to not confuse the two distinct concepts. Just because something is really good/bad doesn't mean it's unbalanced!

    I chose these because as someone who doesn't frequently engage in lower level content like PQs, I didn't feel comfortable designing a survey about that genre of content. Anyone interested and well-versed in those non-end game contents is very welcome to create a separate pulse~

    I design surveys and analyze results to make data products for a living, but please feel free to DM me more survey methodology 101 concepts wackomush
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  20. OP
    OP
    joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    4:39 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    I'd be happy to see a research grade survey posted by the balance team to counteract my seemingly lacking survey experience!
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
    • Creative Creative x 2
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page