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Important New System for White Scrolls (Feedback Thread)

Discussion in 'MapleLegends Announcements' started by Nise, Jul 6, 2021.

How do you feel about the Prestigious Coin system?

Poll closed Jul 14, 2021.
  1. Strongly support

    190 vote(s)
    34.4%
  2. Slightly support

    130 vote(s)
    23.6%
  3. Neutral

    90 vote(s)
    16.3%
  4. Slightly oppose

    71 vote(s)
    12.9%
  5. Strongly oppose

    71 vote(s)
    12.9%
  1. JKNS
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    JKNS Selkie Jr.

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    Sep 21, 2020
    7:28 AM
    Hero, Dark Knight, F/P Arch Mage, I/L Arch Mage, Bishop, Night Lord
    Is there a different MapleLegends or an alternate dimension we're not aware of? Seems like your bossing experiences are in your own world. What you're talking about in terms of ceding splits to the people I run with is something I do with cakes at PBPQ. WS/CS is an entirely different thing, especially when many players at that point in the game are looking to tune up their gears to the maximum capacity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    Trion
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    True Alot of your posts have been hilarious. 6 Man HTs are very common and when most of these runners are just doing HT for experience and they all have backup mages/HSMules and are good friends with each other you would have to be incredibly naive if some of them wouldnt give a friend a free WS off of it when they dont care about the mesos and just going for XP run. It is no different when friends would run HTP runs for friends back when they were way more expensive. Shouldn't they have all split the profits then? No instead they went on a run to give someone a free HTP.

    This is how this server has gotten in trouble in the past... by just looking at the most optimal scenario and not the most abuse-able ones.
     
  3. Porkupine
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    Porkupine Timer

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    Mar 21, 2019
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    8:28 AM
    xB0wM4sT3rx
    Bowmaster
    Nani
    No need to be disrespectful, let's stay civilized.

    I was addressing your comments about "make horntail give any specific amount of mesos you want if your issue is profitability" rather than dropping an item tied to ws/cs. The coin system is simply a method of reallocating the mesos generated largely by farmers towards some bossers. This way bossing becomes more profitable while avoiding contributing to inflation. Farmers aren't missing out on anything; nothing particularly changes for them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    8:28 AM
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    I understand what you mean it doesn't solve inflation but it doesn't necessarily increase inflation either. It is a good point from that view and I agree but I still don't like it for the other reasons I highlighted previously. But inflation will continue to increase over time whether this system is implemented or not.

    You can address the WS/CS problem in a separate system that doesnt have to be related to bossing.
     
  5. kiln
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    kiln Pink Teddy

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    8:28 AM
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    I don't think anyone here is talking about having bosses drop coins on a per-person basis since it'd easily be abused through muling. Coins are probably going to drop on a per-run basis. If people are being scammed of splits, then you need a better host.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    8:28 AM
    Trion
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    Well we don't know the full details of anything yet at this point so all any of us are really doing is speculating but it is good to have the healthy discussion regardless and explore all the nooks and crannies that a system like this would entail. And I was never talking about scamming really but friendly runs where a single person could be allowed to hoard because others don't care or just go for XP runs and genuinely just want help a certain runner. But I would hope in the case of a Scam host you would report them and the appropriate punishment is dealt.

    I don't want people to get the wrong impression though if I had to choose between bossers keeping the current system as it is or going with this new proposed system by Nise I would still rather they have the new coin trade in system because I think bossing has gotten the shaft for way too long in comparison to mobbing regardless of what I think about some of the "unfairness" that might arise from it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. jesscapades
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    jesscapades Pac Pinky

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    jesscapades
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    Disclaimer: regardless of my education, I do not claim to know how the economy will react to various changes (nor should anyone else). I can probably do a good job of predicting some intermediate effects that will contribute to the final effect, but in economics there's always 100 different effects going in different directions. It's impossible for anyone to know 100/100 of those effects, and unfortunately the effects you don't know tend to negate all the ones you do know.

    Overview of all the shit below
    A lot of the stuff here was written just to help me organize my brain, and also because I didn't have anything better to do today (there's a bug near my PC so I'm hiding out with my laptop in my room today). I didn't feel confident in my analysis of the proposed change without writing out a general model and analysis of the ws economy, which also led me down the road of analyzing other solutions. So most of what's below is irrelevant and difficult to read and digest without some econ background, which I take all the blame for and do not blame the reader for. I'll hide it in its own spoiler, but am choosing to leave it in case people are interested. Feel free to let me know if you find it interesting, and if so I'll put some work into making the writing more concise and readable.

    So basically, skip the spoiler stuff and scroll down to read my more relevant thoughts on this thread's proposed idea. Check the spoiler stuff after if you'd like, but it's badly written and overly complex (personally I don't even wanna read it anymore)

    A. My thoughts on the state of the ws economy
    B. My thoughts on past and potential solutions for decreasing the ws price
    1. Raising gach rates for ws
    2. Nerfing sweepers/farming
    3. Raising non-ws, non-meso, sellable rewards from bossing (basically items end-game bossers would not purchase)
    4. Adding ws rewards to bossing
    5. Adding meso rewards to bossing​

    -- Actually readable stuff starts here --


    6. The idea proposed in this thread
    9. Proposed solution from 4 + 5: adding ws and meso rewards to bossing (this is the only one I like)


    A. My thoughts on the state of the ws economy
    My big brain crap (BBC) is in a spoiler tag below, and it is even less worth reading than the stuff inside this spoiler tag because of how obscure, verbose, and esoteric it is (but I'm happy to discuss those details if anyone wants to). The summary is below. Overall it's a very shallow analysis of the economy that is nowhere near the standards of economic research, and simply uses the concepts and tools derived in economics--hence my disclaimer.

    Elements of the WS economy (I say ws but I also mean cs and all other substitutable goods):
    - bossing incentives are low for end-game players, due to lack of enjoyment from low/zero exp gain and due to shitty income generation
    - farming incentives are high for end-game players, due to utility gained from getting better gear and dpm
    - some farming incentives for mid-game players, though they don't outweigh bossing incentives as much as they do for end-game players

    Analysis of our current state:
    increase in # of end-game players (by that I mean players who will use ws) relative to early- and mid-game players (covid population boom has aged into end game)
    => more meso/ws farming and less ws sellers
    => higher ws prices in equilibrium.​

    This is a broad outline of a partial equilibrium model for white scrolls with a labour/leisure choice in consumer's problem; due to my personal evaluation of effort vs reward here, it will remain more wordy than mathy and it's "solved" using heuristics from actual PE models instead of optimization. I believe a microeconomic/non-monetary is more fitting for this analysis due to the lack of central banks, the importance of incentive design, and the root of the issue and hand which is the ws prices.

    The model splits the population into two demographics: end-game players who want to get lots of ws, and mid-game players who don't need a lot of meso and enjoy casual bossing. There are obviously people who don't match these descriptions but I argue that this is inconsequential to the model's results:
    Example 1: end-game players who don't ever farm would fit into the mid-game category
    Example 2: players who only leech don't have a stake in the bossing world, so they are treated as constants with derivative = 0 and are thus irrelevant for comparative statics​
    In retrospect, I should've labelled these categories as sweaty gear checkers and casuals. :^)

    Consumer's problem
    Given prices and wages, the consumers choose a vector of consumption in {(ws, not ws, meso)}, a vector of labour in {(bossing, farming, investment in mages, leeching)} = {(L_B, L_F, L_I, L_L)}.

    Utility function has three main drivers:
    Note: U_X = Utility of X = amount of utility generated from X.
    Note: MU_X = Marginal Utility of X = derivative of utility wrt to X = utility gain from consuming more X


    MU_E. utility is decreasing in character's end-game dpm during early- to mid-game; increasing after
    MU_M. utility is increasing in character's mid-game dpm during early- to mid-game; decreasing after
    MU_B. utility is concavely increasing in subjective enjoyment from bossing and other methods for exp gain; MU_B -> 0 as level -> 200

    Leisure: bossing, which increases U_B

    Labour choices:
    L_B. boss for income; increases U_E, U_M, U_B, however the effect on U_E and U_M is dependent on how well bossing generates income
    L_F. farm for income; for end-game consumers, increases U_E a lot and U_B slightly; for mid-game, increases U_M and U_B with less of a gap between the two
    L_I. invest in mages and mules for more future income and less future income now; same type of gains as L_F except delayed
    L_L. sell leech for income; same type of gains as L_F

    Consumption goods:
    1. U_E comes directly from consuming ws/cs, and indirectly from getting meso. U_E requires a much higher level of income to attain the same utility as U_M. Currently only achievable through L_F/L_L and L_I
    2. U_M comes directly from consuming mid-game gear, and indirectly from getting meso. It can be achieved entirely through L_B with good rng or in conjunction with small amounts of L_F/L_L and L_I

    Solution to consumer's problem:
    - if MU_E < MU_M (player is in mid game) and MU_M < MU_B (bossing income is sufficient for gear goals), then consumer will supply low amount of L_F, L_L, and L_I , instead opting for leisure (bossing, grinding)
    - if MU_E > MU_M (player is in end game) and MU_E > MU_B (bossing income is not sufficient for gear goals), then consumer will supply high amount of L_F, L_L, L_I
    - note that price of L_L < price of L_F due to costs associated with finding buyers, maintaining eph, etc. So end-game players tend to choose farming over selling leech

    Producer's problem


    Given prices and wages, the producer produces ws and meso using labour (L_F) and capital (i.e. mages, increased through L_I). Producer profits become consumer income for each individual.

    Types of producers:
    Note: P_E = end-game producer, P_M = mid-game producer
    P_E. those with high L_F and L_I who will consume their own ws, and earn high amounts of meso
    P_M. those with low L_F and L_I who will sell their ws and earn relatively low amounts of meso

    Production efficiency:
    - based on gach rng and amount of L_I, so P_E's are more efficient than P_M's

    Market clearing
    - P_E and P_M produce ws, P_E buys ws
    - population demographics affect the distribution of producers between P_E and P_M. more E players => more meso generated and less ws on market, as P_E's are consuming their own and there are fewer P_M's selling ws => high ws prices from scarcity in ws and abundance of buyer mesos


    B. My thoughts on past and potential solutions for decreasing the ws price
    How I expect various interventions to affect our current high-price ws equilibrium (in no specific order)


    1. Raising gach rates for ws
    => greater incentive to farm for both end-game and mid-game players
    => increases ws and mesos produced
    => Implication 1. if the increase in mesos exceeds the increase in ws, then ws price increases.
    To illustrate what I mean by this, suppose you currently spend your time doing 10 hours of farming at 10m/hr and the rest doing whatever. Then Kimmy announces higher ws rates which incentivizes you to spend 11 hours of farming now. But if the ws rate increase was low, say 0.001 ws per hour to 0.002 ws per hour, then the result is that you've generated an extra 10m in mesos and only an additional 0.001 ws or 190k worth of ws.

    Implication 2. if incentive to farm due to higher ws rates is more appealing for end-game players than mid-game players, then we'd have more meso generated and those incentivized farmers would keep ws for personal use => relatively less ws sellers, as the sellers are mid-game players => higher ws prices in equilibrium​

    Conclusion: implication #1 and implication #2 are heavily intertwined which makes this solution complicated. Implication #1 could be negated if the gach rate is increased heavily, such that the amount of meso generated is less than the amount of ws generated. This would lead to buyers being less willing to buy (as they can farm their own ws) and lower meso generation rates, and thus lower ws prices. However even if the meso generation rate is lower, the incentive for end-game players is higher from the high ws rates, and so increases in the amount of farming could still increase the total meso generation which would negate any negative price effects.

    I suspect implication 1 dominated when ws rates were increased a few months back and the price kept increasing.

    2. Reducing production efficiency from farming (e.g. sweeper nerf)
    => decreases incentive for farming and production efficiency for those who still farm, increases incentive for selling leech
    => less ws and mesos produced from reduced production efficiency and reduced participation in farming
    => if decrease in mesos > decrease in ws, then by the same logic as Implication 1 in policy #1 ws price should fall

    Conclusion: you would expect ws price to fall after the sweeper changes. So why are we not seeing this? Who knows. My best guesses are
    - inelastic demand for ws price and scarcity from less farmers lead easy price manipulation
    - innocent players banned with lots of ws on their accounts #freenomilk #freethedgafclub #JeSuisShivering #free emoreJ etc.

    3. Raising non-ws, non-meso, sellable rewards from bossing (basically items end-game bossers would not purchase)
    I have no idea what this would look like but nonetheless, here are the implications I see:
    => decreases incentive for farming for both end-game and mid-game players, with greater effect on mid-game players as they have less to gain from choosing farming over bossing
    => Implication 1. less ws and mesos produced, by the same logic as before we'd expect ws price to fall
    => Implication 2. more players doing bossing/exp content amplifies the population-aging effect and would increase ws demand and price in the future. This could eventually negate the price effect in Implication 1.

    4. Adding ws reward to bossing
    => higher incentive to boss, would sway people away from farming
    => less meso generated; amount of ws generated depends on the rate at which it drops from bosses and how enticed people are to switch to bossing from farming/leeching. The *perfect* rate would be very difficult to to set because not only do you need to balance the bossing revenue with the farming revenue, but you also have the deflation effects from less farmers which will directly influence the values of boss drops and farming drops.

    5. Adding meso reward to bossing
    => higher incentive to boss and lower incentive to farm
    => less ws generated; amount of meso generated depends on the bosses meso drop rate. As with #4, it's difficult to set this rate because you can't estimate how the # of ws generated will change.


    6. This thread's idea
    I'm not on board with this thread's idea. My issue with it is similar to the issue I highlighted in #4 and #5 but even more severe--there is waaay too much going on. The elements that I'll focus on are making ws untradeable, making a new currency, and forcing prices to be X% of each other.

    1. Making ws untradeable: the use of ws as an asset is a problem, stemming from people noticing that the value kept going up. Instead of tackling this AND the price together, it makes more sense to me to tackle the price first and then reevaluate. If the ws price and inflation is able to stabilize then a lot of the incentive to hoard is gone, and then we can see if it's still worth tackling.
    2. Making a whole new currency: once you put all this currency out there, it's pretty much a done deal. If this change is implemented and turns out to be bad, removing it would be a whole mess with converting everyone's coins into items/meso.
    3. Forcing ws/cs/RoT/other prices to be X% of each other: I can't imagine what methodology would be used for this and I think regardless of the methodology, it doesn't make sense to peg prices to each other. I can see that this is a necessary result of the whole idea, but I see it as a serious flaw that negates a lot of the positive effects of this change.
    Overall I think simplicity is best in this situation, and the best way to approach it is with baby steps. If we throw everything at once, it makes it more difficult to understand what worked and what went wrong, which in turn makes problem-solving in the future even harder. I know there's lots of things that are problematic in the ws economy right now: imbalance between bossing and farming rewards, price effects fom ws investing/hoarding, tax evasion, etc. Fixing everything in one change sounds very nice but rarely works in practice. Plus it becomes even more confusing once you consider the myriad of other confounding factors, such as: event rewards, unexpected and perhaps unwarranted bans of players with a lot of ws (#freenomilk #freethedgafclub #JeSuisShivering #freeemoreJ), bugs that detract ppl from HT, and more.


    My favourite proposed solution so far:

    9. (from #4 + #5) Add ws and meso rewards to bossing
    What if we just.. take bikini bottom and push it somewhere else? Make bossing ws + meso generation similar to farming/leeching? In this scenario I think it should still be slightly less profitable to boss, as there are joy-related gains from doing fun stuff rather than casting ults on all your mages for hours on end. Exception is if you're a shad in ht, in which case you should consider playing a different character.

    Implications:
    => Implication 1. Sweatier end-game players will still farm due to efficiency in meso gain, but there will be a chunk of them that will migrate to bossing. Mid-game players will likely migrate/continue to bossing because of exp incentives, however the amount of meso and ws generated by them was minimal to begin with so the loss could be negligible. However more mid-game bossing would lead to faster aging, bringing the same issue we saw this year with so many people hitting end-game and demanding end-game items.
    => Implication 2. similar amounts of ws and meso generated as before, so price unaffected

    Conclusion: I think this is a good start. Rates won't be pulled out of someone's ass and can be set in relative terms with farming rates. Of course, there are still some difficulties as farming earnings depends on how much you've invested into mages, mules, gear, etc., but I think this is the lesser of two evils.

    What I like most about this idea is that it should have no effect on the ws prices, and very little effect on the amount of mesos and amount of ws generated. Trying to affect and change multiple things at once sounds way too dangerous to me. So step 1 of this method would be to set rates for each boss, e.g. make ws/meso rate similar to ulu2 for HT, and similar to cornians for Zak. If this works in balancing bossing and farming, then next steps might be to give each method a comparative advantage, e.g. make farming better at generating meso and make bossing better at generating ws, and then finally fiddling with those rates to affect the price.

    ---

    My final comment on this is that you should not trust everything I say. This post got so fucking long and I basically became an echo chamber with myself. I hope people find it interesting at least, and if not, I won't get mad if you hit me with the ironic reacts :^)
     
    • Great Work x 32
    • Informative x 3
    • Like x 2
    • Agree x 2
    • Friendly x 1
  8. Stow
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    Stow Mixed Golem

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    yer mate, let me gather a group of friends that will willingly give me their WS on a regular basis to run bosses for exp
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  9. ma3ohma3
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    ma3ohma3 Chronos

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    8:28 PM
    good idea. decouples the WS/CS markets for casuals. Imo, Bossing for X number of times guarantees you 70 WS and perfect weapon.
    Everyone's progression is placed on the same scale (i.e. coin to WS/CS exchange rates set out by GMs). For the rates wise, it could be slow or low, but as long as the goalposts are not moving all the time, its good news.
    Hopefully, we will get more player base from this.
    love legends <3
     
  10. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    You are still thinking of the mindset that WS is hard to get and Gacha and FM only. You can run HT everyday if you want.
     
  11. Stow
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    Stow Mixed Golem

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    yer mate, let me run HT 10 days a day to farm WS everyday, and find friends willing to run 10 times a day with me and give me all the coins every single time, maybe ill get one WS every 2 days.

    wait wasnt there something about bossing limit a day?
     
  12. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    Just going to focus on one particular part of this post.


    I am not a fan of adding ws to the drop table instead of having a consistent stream of say 2-5 coins drop per HT run. Adding ws to a drop table means it'd probably drop once every y runs on average meaning some runs are highly profitable and some runs are highly dry. Unless you're running HT for a long period of time such that things average out, you won't be able to obtain the smoothing out benefits of this. I highly doubt level 200's will be running HT consistently for a long period of time and so having periods of dry runs makes HTing at level 200 incredibly frustrating. A key benefit of having coins of which multiple will add up to a ws and cs is it reduces the profit volatility between HT runs and means that if I decide to run HT on a random day as a level 200 I don't have to worry about it being too dry and wasting my time.
     
  13. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    I said you can run it everyday not 10 times a day. So thats 14 times a week. I never said every single time either. I appreciate hyperbole and sarcasm as much as anyone but at least engage in serious dialogue and don't put words in my mouth.
     
  14. kiln
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    kiln Pink Teddy

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    I'm having trouble understanding how adding a meso reward to bossing lowers the WS price. Can you explain?
     
  15. jesscapades
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    jesscapades Pac Pinky

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    Yeah that's a great point. To clarify, I'd want the mesos set high enough so that it's not all-or-nothing, and so that it's similar to farming where you get a constant stream of mesos plus little bit of rng for big-ticket items like ws/cs. The amount of mesos should be comparable to the opportunity cost a player has when attending HT--they give up 3-4 hours of farming time, so that's mesos + gach generation lost from the economy and for the player. My proposal would be to have maybe HT drop a similar but slightly lower number of gach tickets, and then have maybe have Moira give a modest amount of meso as a quest reward for killing HT.

    Determining the amount of meso/gach is not as straightforward as I just described, as you have to factor in what the average opportunity cost is for everyone--some people farm more intensely, some don't farm at all. But overall the end result should be that the player's earnings are comparable but slightly worse when choosing to boss over farming/selling leech, and the total effect on meso and gach generation on the economy should be close to zero and ideally on the negative side.

    I might be misunderstanding your question or you might be misreading (let me know). For #5, I don't know how the ws price would be affected, and that's the big issue I have with that solution. The only conclusion I can think of is just that we'd have less ws generated as people shfit from farming/leeching for meso + gach to bossing for meso rewards. Then it gets confusing to predict prices because we don't know how much the amount of mesos generated will change.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  16. Oradious
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    Oradious Mr. Anchor

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    Not to be a jerk but 75m in a month is 104k/hour. If you really want to be technical it's 1.14% of the value of a 6man HT kill in terms of mesos/hour.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
  17. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    Already said many many many times I am all for more profit at HT and other places just not through this kind of a system. That was illustrating a different point and that number could be way higher considering it wasn't even close to doing it every day of the month which was previously stated. But you aren't a jerk and would never cherry pick posts.
     
  18. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    104k an hr is about 0.24% of how much akash makes
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Precise ulu2 experiments have actually shown that ulu2 is some around 13-14m/hr if farmed raw accounting for everything. Without gach, its around 10-11m/hr.
     
  20. Oradious
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    Oradious Mr. Anchor

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    Just to be sure we are all on the same page as our inhouse bossing expert Trion, can we define what constitutes bossing?

    Does killing area bosses like Mano or summonable bosses like Capt Latanica count as bossing?
     

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