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Buff Neo Tokyo Drop Rate and Restrict Coin Muling

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Gurk, Jul 15, 2021.

  1. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I would like to propose a revamp to NT bossing with respect to drop rate and eligibility for receiving coins. NT bossing profits, or lack thereof, are infamous for being incredibly underwhelming and in fact very often amount to a net loss. Those who have done NT regularly may know of the "fresh air" meme, which refers to the frequency at which NT bosses drop absolutely nothing.

    I have recorded drop data for my last 118 Verga runs, which have averaged to about 2.25m per run, which translates to about 750k in splits before pot costs for the typical trios. If we value a coin at 8,500 mesos, that would increase average Verga splits to about 1.6m (an extra 850k per mule brought in). As NT buffs have long been universally sought after, whether it be by increasing the number of "npc equips" that drop on average to look something like that of Papulatus or Ravana or by increasing the drop rate of NT weapons or by tweaking the drop tables and adding gach-exclusive scrolls, it seemed moot to dedicate a thread to just buffing NT. Instead, I'd like to focus this thread on the likely underlying reason as to why NT bossing has yet to see any significant buffs: coin muling.

    Staff has said in the past that NT is simply too easy to enter and mule, and I would like to offer several suggestions on how to best remedy this.

    1. Create a repeatable quest that rewards a custom item that is required for a character to enter an NT boss and which is consumed upon entry (akin to that of PB's Marble of Chaos).

      As an example, the quest might require mob kills and etcs from Odaiba and/or Ninja Castle and would reward anywhere from 4 to 8 "passes". This would add some barrier to entry and would either be a significant time sink for those wishing to bring in an army of mules or would require one to purchase numerous passes from others such that it would likely not be worth doing so.

    2. Add a damage requirement for a character to be eligible for coins.

      This could be 5% or 10% of the boss's total health. Considering the infrastructure for determining which character has done the most damage is already in place and that exp is based roughly on the amount of damage dealt, i.e. damage for all characters is already tracked, this should not be difficult to implement. The coin reward could also be tied to boss kill as opposed to the clicking of the crystal at the end to better facilitate this. Those who multiclient several attackers may still be able to reap coin benefits from this, though I don't see it being especially problematic given the amount of effort required.

    3. Only allow characters that are of level to receive exp be eligible for coins.

      For Verga and Nibergen, this would mean a character would have to be at least level 163 to receive coins, and 169 for Dunas and Nameless. This would be trivial to implement but would only raise the bar for coin muling rather than eliminate it, though it would certainly address the issue for the overwhelming majority of players.

    4. Have NT bossing be like PQs instead of an expedition, where only one party is taken in.

      This would mean that there would be a max of 6 characters allowed inside, which would significantly lessen the extent to which people could bring in mules. While also simple to implement, this would still allow some degree of coin muling, especially for sweaty players who solo NT bosses with multiple attackers.

    5. Have NT bosses reward a set total amount of coins that gets split between all characters present at the time of boss kill.

      For example, this set total amount of coins could be the amount of coins they already currently give multiplied by 3 or 4, as most NT bossing is done in trios or quads. For Verga, this might mean the coin total would be 300 and if one were to solo the boss they would receive all of the 300 coins, and if they were to trio it each person would receive 100 coins. Likewise, if 10 characters were brought in, then each character would receive 30 coins. This may be difficult to implement.

    6. Have NT bosses drop stacks of coins directly.

      For example, bosses could drop a variable amount of stacks of coins, perhaps anywhere from 1 to 5, with each stack being 100 coins, that would then either be rolled for or split evenly among the players. This would eliminate coin muling entirely.
    By addressing the root issue that is NT muling, I believe NT will be in a state where it can receive significant buffs without there being potential problems. Furthermore, by making NT bossing worth doing outside of just being glorified exp runs, we cement a place in the meta for Paladins.

    P.S. pls also buff dunas exp
     
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  2. Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    I can't claim to have done any NT bosses seriously but the 'coin muling' situation borders on comical. Bring 5 characters = 5x the reward, wow such game.
    +1 to the boy Gurko, I sincerely hope NT can be redeemed from clown tier.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  3. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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  4. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Great post but you lost me here.

    To be more serious tho I hope staff actually does something with NT. The pap comparison is just crazy that a boss you can solo in early 4th job has more steady income than a 16x+ area. Just a quick example but my 2x pap today got 1.7m in NPCable drops in roughly 10 minutes.
     
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  5. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    I feel like this is getting attention again because its yet another Coin system that could use some adjustments in light of the "Prestigious Coin" announcement.
     
  6. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    Overall great suggestions, I just want to nitpick some details.

    1. Create a repeatable quest that rewards a custom item that is required for a character to enter an NT boss and which is consumed upon entry (akin to that of PB's Marble of Chaos).

      Currently, HB is required for unwashed/semi-washed players and is also muled quite often. For people who want to solo or duo these bosses, I think muling shouldn't be restricted, especially for people who overlevel their HB/HS specifically for NT.

    2. Add a damage requirement for a character to be eligible for coins.

      This kind of nerfs bishops even more, considering they can't even do damage to some NT bosses...

    3. Only allow characters that are of level to receive exp be eligible for coins.

      I think this is probably the best solution. It's easy to check and implement. It does kind of suck for early 15X/16X characters though, because some people like to explore this new content early before they can get exp. Also underlevel I/L can also pin nameless at 15X so they can actually legitimately participate.


    4. Have NT bossing be like PQs instead of an expedition, where only one party is taken in.
      This solution doesn't eliminate the people who can easily duo/trio, but does prevent degenerate muling.

    5. Have NT bosses reward a set total amount of coins that gets split between all characters present at the time of boss kill.
      I like this solution too. Griefing coins from other party members will stop excessive muling. If you are the one that brings in a necessary HS/SE/HB mule, they it's reasonable to get some more coins.
     
  7. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I favor solution 6 the most, it is the best solution to combat muling without any unintended side-effects. Now, how much should the neo tokyo boss drop rates be improved? I propose that they should be on par with pap and ravana in terms of drops, and squads should always be able to get at least 1m in npc equips per run.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  8. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I came up with the first suggestion as a way to tackle both the "being too easy to enter" and "too easy to mule" aspects, though I'm not sure how much the former really matters for staff. Perhaps they meant the former only in relation to the latter and solving the latter removes the need to address the former. But for what it's worth, the quest wouldn't necessarily need to be all that difficult to complete. It could be as easy as the Scar prequest for obtaining the spirit bears, meaning one would still be able to bring their HB/HS mules in with just a bit more effort, or a few 100k mesos to buy the passes like the way people buy sunbursts for Ravana.

    As for your point on the second suggestion, none of the bosses resist holy so I'm sure they'd still be able to reach a 5% damage threshold.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. shck
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    shck Timer Retired Staff

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    I had an idea to change NT crafting which could possibly tackle the coin muling issue but idk how I can elaborate much on it. Goes something like:

    1) We use NT boss ETC drops for NT crafting in place of coins. (Vergamot Oil Tank, Magic Monster Horn, Nibergen Reactor, Magic Monster Claw)
    -Removes NT coin muling since there's no more coin leeching, but still allows people to bring buff mules to aid them in their run

    2) x amount of NT monster ETCs to unlock Saint/Wiseman/Warrior stones instead of coins.
    -People have to actually farm in these maps for the ETCs if they want to craft NT stuff
     
  10. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    As a meme ice lightning nerd I'd love to see some love for NT.

    Personally I think a combination of point 4 and 6 would be the best and also the easiest solution to implement and having the limit of only your party can enter the map would means you can still bring plenty of people to easily clear the bosses, you'd never really need more than that.

    #3 is probably a decent solution also but I'd hate to see it get implemented since it hurts the players that actively fight these bosses while under leveled even more.
    • Getting no exp from the run
    • Dealing % based less dmg per level you are below the boss
    • Getting no coin rewards
    The people that run it below the required level is a very niche group so it may not matter too much and gives people the incentive to level up actively but as someone who did solo verga at 162 and from there on did my majority of Nameless runs from between the levels 162 - 169 It would have sucked massively if there were 0 rewards at all other than the boss drops (which ofc would be higher with this implementation).

    And I agree that the EXP gain can be looked at again, especially dunas even after the recent buff. Less important matter though, especially if drops were better it'd matter less.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    Flashbacks to 2019 NT posts.
    What's so bad about NT muling? It's not like there's a huge market for crafting anyways.
     
  12. Skuire
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    Skuire Nightshadow

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    The main gripes are that 1. it's fundamentally dumb that bringing more characters (regardless of their contribution to the fight) just straight up gives you multiplicatively greater rewards, and 2. coin muling is a cheesy justification against actually bothering to buff the content and make it worthwhile.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    For muling in NT itself, i agree it's needed because it's sucky sucky to find 'actual archers/buccaneers/DKs/BISHOPS:kekw: whenever we try NTR (aka NT run). but also I think it's dumb to get coins just by entering there using multiclient.

    There are many solutions but I'd suggest, just remove coin reward and buff actual gears/stuffs droprate? MapleF14
     
  14. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    I said this in the event feedback thread but being afk should never provide you any kind of financial benefit
     
  15. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    Who said nerfing NT muling gonna balance out the content by buffing it?
    Crafting is still kinda costly and RNG and the time that takes you to craft is still long.

    Also this whole thread and its replies didn't mention the overall complexity of NT muling (i.e. muling in Vergamot OR Dunas ATT ranged rework OR Nibergen's lasers/summons).
    It's suggested wrongly that if one were to bring 100 mules, it'll be 100x the profit for him with no complication involved whatsoever.

    Edit: Also gating NT muling will exclude bossers that didn't wash too well/less skillful players from running NT.
     
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  16. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    ^ You can still afk bot left at Dunas post range rework, you just cant spam ultis for free anymore
     
  17. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    That's true, but again,it isn't black and white.
    A Bishop needs to actively dispel Dunas so you don't end up wasting your own time running it.
    Also obviously your own mules' ability to leech coins- rely on your main's ability to kill Dunas and the least your main does in Dunas is to AFK.

    But yeah, your reply raised another question.
    Should or shouldn't bossers/mules that aren't chained to the same PC/IP attacking be eligible to leech coins? I'm totally against that.
     
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  18. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Whether or not nerfing NT coin muling and buffing the content will "balance" out is a bit besides the point as profits gained from bringing a legion of mules shouldn't be used as the benchmark in the first place. Obviously any buffs that NT would see as a result of this change would almost certainly bring about less profits than that gained from bringing in 10+ characters, and that's fine.

    Crafting being costly and RNG seems a rather moot point as most profits from coins are obtained through the selling of MTKs, or more recently Armor-Piercing Bullets, as demand for NT weapon crafting remains very low. Furthermore, the time it takes one to have enough coins to craft is entirely dependent on the number of chars one brings in and thus also a moot point. If one were to do daily NT tours with 5 chars, they would have enough coins to craft 5 MTKs every 1.5 weeks, or one every ~2 days.

    I routinely bring in 5 chars into NT and it's generally effortless. For Verga, as long as no more than one of them is a mage (the only additional char apart from your main that you need to duck lasers on), it's completely afk safe provided that none of these mules are unwashed ranged chars. As for Dunas, as someone already mentioned below, the bottom left is also completely afk safe. For Nibergen, you can position your mules on the left such that they don't get hit by lasers. The summons are only an annoyance if you have no left side attackers, and that can still be resolved by having any warrior/mage/shad/sair grab their aggro as soon as they're summoned. Nameless, needless to say, is also completely afk safe anywhere on the top.

    This thread is primarily about limiting the use of coin mules. Only the first suggestion mentioned anything that would make it more difficult to bring in buff mules, and the degree to which it would be made harder would entirely depend on implementation. As I mentioned in a comment above, the quest could be relatively easy to finish and thus just require slightly more effort.
     
  19. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Mules in nt are limited only by how strong of a pay2win machine the computer is to handle the clients. Even verga, probably the least "afk" boss to mule in, is trivial. Ducking on coin mules is practically unnecessary as they can either have enough hp and be kept alive solely with pet. Or even cheaper, have a bishop provide an afk service to the mules (bonus points if the mules are all buccs or other bishops to tl/cycle resses).

    The exp from NT bosses (minus Dunas still) actually isnt that bad, but timeless weapons are easier to get than spear/flairgraves, and most graves are going to still be worse than dragon weapons except the highest of rolls.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. LurkinShadow
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    LurkinShadow Mixed Golem

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    I ran probably as much runs as most people that replied here so NT muling is "trivial" to me as well (I'm talking 500+ runs in total) but running NT/NT muling isn't as much for the average Legenders.

    I'm not a huge fan of gating/excluding good bossers that didn't wash quite well/rely on certain buffs simply because a mule/buffer didn't do his daily-entrance quest like the one suggested above.

    ALTHOUGH, if giving coins ONLY for an active attacker of the respective level range (just like it was for bossing points in the last event) MAY result in overall revamping/buffing of a long-sought after balancing of NT- I'm for that!
     
    • Informative Informative x 1

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