The buff Paladins need

I already said I stand corrected on this. I do apologize further for making this assumption.

I can't say for sure, but I don't think you're right on this. I'm not gonna claim I know entirely how boss aggro is drawn outside of hitting kb threshold, but even WHEN hitting kb threshold on bean, the aggro doesn't always shift. Snipe only sometimes shifts the aggro, for example. From my experience (including bean), I always felt like higher single-line attacks always reliably captured aggro better. This is why I brought this up.

Let's say an avg night lord's single target dpm is 10m. Theoretical no-dr body is gonna be 5m dpm.
I don't know many archmages, even WAY high level, that are able to output 5m dpm with just CL / para.
There is 0 reason to take in a class with no avoid, surviveability or party contribution to bean just so that they would do "kinda comparable at best" dmg to the body, and HALF to the rest of the fight.

Good. There already is so little content to do as an actual bishop player with how muled this class is. I really don't want to expect a bishop player to have to hard-wash and grind to 190 JUST to be able to do the one piece of content besides maybe HT when a bishop HAS to be an active part at.

There's also always going to be the higher-level-more-washed-hp thing to bishops wanting to PB anyway.


I wanna just bring up again before my posts end up looking like an intentional thread-hijack to start boo-hooing about my class that I AM in favor of a pali buff for PB. I can't confidently say how / to what exactly, but I very much agree with this sentiment.

 

I agree. Kind of strange for HH to have been nerfed if Paladin isn't meant to perform as a single target attacker either. +1

 

I strongly disagree with this. If you believe that bishops are lacking in "actual" bossing content, why would you be in favor of keeping PB as a state of uninvolved and lackluster (gameplay-wise) content for bishops?

In all honesty, the whole "oh but bishops have to res, dispel, whatever in PB!" arguments are kind of silly. The real difficulty in PB comes from optimizing your damage output throughout the run, and this is where differences in player skill (as well as gear, funding, levels) can actually matter. Bishops are pretty much completely absent from this, as even the strongest bishops will be dealing negligible damage in PB.

How is it a good thing that, in the most difficult end-game boss in ML, a low level 16x bishop can pretty much perform at the same level as an end-game 200 bishop with perfect gear? Bishops should be incentivized to progress through the game by upgrading their gear and leveling just like other classes. Unfortunately the current state of PB for bishops, and also combined with the HT meta now heavily favoring single-target DPS again, has really been having the opposite effect.

 

Man Cerulean it's a GREAT point, and I really do believe dmg optimization is the most engaging part of end game meta, so I feel you on that, and I hope there's ways to incorporate more active bishopping in bosses (partly why I love the new dunas changes, btw). However this is a much larger issue and really isn't related to PB, and removing holy resist does NOT solve it - especially not on the perfect gear part progress part as a 180+ mage is gonna have almost ALL of their dmg come from their level, and not from gear. I don't think removing holy resist is gonna go a long way for making bishops more viable to main on the larger scheme, and instead kinda just gives the party pretty much free dmg slots while expeditions already are way within clear-able range. You are essentially adding like 3-4m dpm on body from an otherwise dmg-less slot. The effect this will have on runs is HUGE.

 

You should add another dmg comparison of pally vs hero with holy resistance removed on the bean. Just rough calculation assuming Holy charge = 185% and Thunder charge = 150% means Pally should do 1.15x the dmg of heroes in body phase (7.24m vs 6.49 dpm). Seems pretty acceptable. Curious how it all lines up with other jobs.

 

The idea of removing holy resistance would make free damage slots out of bishops is absurd. This is the kind of dpm obtained by the strongest bishop in the server, and doubling it would give an increase of 1m. For most run-of-the-mill bishops out there one can expect an increase of maybe like 750k-800k per bishop at most. Granted, this figure was on wizard elixir rather than cheese, but even with cheese it would've only been increased by a factor of ~1.12x. (Anyone who tried to say JigaJuice gets a Big Bang in the head)

In the same vein, arguing that removing holy resistance would take away relative viability of Archmages is also absurd. Even if you double this number (and then add another 12% on it), the figure falls far from any reasonable attacker class, Archmage included, and lowering it to the standards of standard bishop instead of untrue would making it fall even farther. These would simply still not be acceptable numbers for attackers, and any runs that are comfortable with the number of bishops they're bringing currently would have no reason to include more bishops just because they can hit with the force of two BB guns instead of one.

With that said, the viability of archmages has zero to do with the point of this thread (which is the viability of paladins) and should not merit any argument as long as people are still trying to stay on topic.

 

What if ACB was a magic attack?

 

Thank you Nise very much for confirming this information. <3
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I'm sorry ... my previous words will mislead people.
It is MS design how the pally is (melee single target DPS).
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Before talking about theoretically dpm, all of us should be very careful about how the dpm should be calculated.
Details here.

Hypothesis:
1. If I didn't make any mistake about calculating dpm below.
2. gear used in data here.
3. Physical damage is treated like an element for PB, so the same calculations apply.
4. Without DR.

Result:
If holy resistance removed on the pb body,
perfect gear pally use claymore + blast (holy charge) + SI + SE + Echo + Apple
perfect gear hero use claymore + brandish (ACA) + SI + SE + Echo + Apple
----> It (pb body) becomes same as Solomon (but 1/2 of dpm).
With the data I calculated last night, It shows me that :
pally dpm = 7,202,813
hero dpm = 6,492,678
pally dpm = 1.109x hero dpm

Something that I'm not 100% sure about :
1. How PDR works ?
2. In Nise's Formula Compilation shows that PDR is calculated in Step 2.
3. But SE is calculated in Step 5.
4. Where is the mob's element calculated at? (Which Step?)
I'm saying how does the element (or PDR) multiply the output number.
For example: pally (with SE/Echo/Apple) blast/fire charge on scar.

 

I really support the idea that Paladin should do good damage in pink bean and in any other boss in game. I'm also fully support on make things that make melee classes (all of them) more viable to single target bosses- so we can have everyone in every boss (bottom line R>range and not R>attacker.. is annoying to see).
I believe comparing Paladin to Hero not gonna lead you anywhere as good as you wish for paladin position in-game or in PB.
for example, lets say Hero will do less damage in all game boss-battles than paladin, will it satisfy you ?
I think the honest and right answer for this will be - OFC NOT.
So why in the beginning you comparing hero to paladin (what about DK?)?
your opinion is- hero (as its in maplelegends) is only cleave class, so it should do less damage than paly, but its still not making the comparation leading to a good state for paladins, its just not but indirectly defame Hero class.
off topic but relate for what some of you say-
saying Paladin can't cleave is just not true, meaning -
V- can 7f
V- can 5-6f
V- can NTPQ
V-can CWKPQ (duo paladin can kill CWKPQ bosses as good as heroes)
the point is - saying Paladin is a single target class without cleaving ability is miss-leading and just not true.
sure Hero can cleave, but does it say that Hero cant participate in single target bosses (which is almost all bosses in game- which is also HT for after last patch with the annoying cancels)
so after all, Paladin CAN cleave, the only thing heroes cleave much better than paly is HT heads (before the last patch)
point to think about -
Paladin is kinda all in 1 class while Hero/DK is only cleaving, thinking of ability and utilities -> paladin has a huge advantage over DK / Hero almost in any aspect.
DK/Hero only advantage over Paladin in 7f (lets say this advantage comes to 5 to 10m EPH).
thinking of DK vs Hero - DK can buff hb (the most important buff in game), Hero can't which means Hero is a pure attacker which should get love (as utilities) in bosses to be welcome to them.

TL;DR - buff whatever Paladin needs, but stop comparing it to Hero its leading no where. Hero viability in bosses is already doubtful.

 

As far as I know, the other Skills that have different Mastery separate(?) from other Mastery within the class are Meso Explosion and most Magician Skills (Like Magic Claw). So I was lead to believe that Active Attack Skills can have it's own Mastery.

I'm surprise'd ya'd actually look into my suggestion here!

 

dont bring bsps into the argument. they are a dead class the moment SI didnt work on mages.