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Marksman speed?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Maplemaple, Jul 21, 2021.

  1. Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Can mm's shoot any faster without the help of si with just the booster speed o.o like sairs shoot fast without si but still benefit from it. I think mm's would be a bit more interesting to play if they could strafe like 1 speed faster. Like would it really make them crazy op if they were to shoot a tad bit faster? I doubt so o.o

    id like to know why if you disagree so i can understand better ty
     
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  2. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    6:18 AM
    MrPresident
    Spearman
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    The way these classes are balanced is roughly MM > BM with SI and BM > MM without SI. If you speed up MM attack speed then they could be stronger than BM in both scenarios which wouldn’t really be fair for BM.
     
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  3. OP
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    Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    I see. I mean at this point i think its more about like how washed you are and your gears too to determine which is stronger.. no? The shooting speed is just too damn slow.. i dont have a bm myself so i cant say but if that slight increase really doesnt make it fair for them then maybe they can nerf some dmg from strafe or something? I just want the speeeeed... Ty for your response! :)
     
  4. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    10:18 AM
    I think you will make a more welcoming suggestion if the speed is increased so that MM has an easier time to pin CWKPQ pirate, while somewhat having a penalty to the damage to keep in line with the current situation.
    MM already doesn't have hamstring to slow down CWKPQ pirate, and they need SI to pin, which is just a big quality of life difference between BM and MM in the archer-most-wanted content.
     
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  5. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    6:18 PM
    YUrain
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    I don't think this is true. According to this (this even included the +15wa MM boost and 95% mastery which was reverted anyway lol) and this .
    MM with SI is at most on par with with BM, and way far off without it.

    But then cwk suckssss as a MM. The 5 lines 75% strafe made it harder for you to hit the 15k lines to pin the pirate than a 100% strafe.
    You also don't have hamstring to make things easier for you.
     
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  6. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    MrPresident
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    All of those charts include gelt which scales way harder on a BM compared to MM. I'm not sure where the crossover is but under a certain total attack MM should be better than BM with SI. If it's really at 265 att like the 2nd graph seems to show then MM should always be better unless on apple (maybe stopper if you have incredible gear).
     
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  7. OP
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    Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    I mean i guess cwk is 1 thing yeah. Just in general though itd def raise the overall quality of life and make em more interesting to play. If damage is REALLY the issue on a game-changer level, nerf the dmg and up the speed? See how much dmg would really have to be nerfed i doubt much.. In the end it really is about your gear and how washed out you are anyway.. haha. I doubt raising 1 speed would make mm's significantly superior than the bm counterparts. Im not asking for full si speed as normal attack speed.. lol
     
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  8. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Nightz
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    Moderator Post
    upload_2021-7-21_22-35-24.png

    upload_2021-7-21_22-35-31.png

    Note that this is far endgame, mid 4th job MM is supposedly better than BM with SI.
     
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  9. pharaoh
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    pharaoh Master Chronos

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    Late game BM's do outdamage MM's but I think that's fair. Until 180+, MM's severely outperform BM's and even NL's at the very early levels. Snipe just means that they have a unique powerspike in early 4th job, which I think is fair and interesting. Also, MM's are already better than BM's at Pink Bean due to the flat damage reduction not affecting snipe. Also, their weapons are much less expensive so you can get to "decent" damage with significantly less funding. I feel like the tradeoffs right now are fair and that both classes are in a good spot with no definite edge that one has over the other. If anything, maybe just a global 5% reduction on the pirate boss's movespeed in CWK could help MM's QOL a little bit without affecting BM's very much. I find pinning pirate boss not too bad, but I do have an SI mule and can appreciate that lower level MM's might find this a struggle without SI (which I didn't have to worry about at that stage when the aggro mechanic was different).
     
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  10. OP
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    Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Oh wow nice. Didnt even know that chart existed LOL is there a graph that compares mid game lvl range? Same gear same stat same everything. Per lvl would be nice.. Bm's can stay strong idm but if theyre gonna out-dmg at end game anyway, how would raising speed be a significant issue o.o wait even with si mm's dps is lower? Then a little speed buff somewhere in between current speed and si speed wouldnt do bm's much harm right? They can go ahead and be the archer king/queens take the crown. Mm's will still be lower anyway no? I mean its not a guarantee that there will always be a bucc in your pt. Si wont be always available
     
  11. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    These charts are with perfect gear, attack scales hard on BM so that's why.
    for more info on the charts you'd have to ask NiseNise though since I stole them off him!
     
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  12. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Is it just me or is apple not much of a pog boost for archers? 26% better for MM and 34% for BM.. :eek:
    Sadge
     
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  13. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
    6:18 AM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    I think it depends on two things:
    1. Primary stat multiplier
    2. How much base weapon atk you have

    Classes that have low stat multiplier and high weapon atk base weapons benefit the least from weapon atk pots. And vice-versa.
     
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  14. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    I think it's dependent on the skill used and how critical (SE) work actually.
    In terms of damage range itself, I checked with my own calculator and adapted for buccs vs archers, the difference is not that huge, but after considering the skills, the number changes, but I didn't work out the whole thing to check whether I get about ~30% for archers on apple. That's my speculation :eek:
    I can be totally wrong actually, didn't really think much about it :p

    You're probably right, I was just messing the number too much and ended up not comparing the exact same stuff :p
     
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  15. Cerulean
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    Cerulean Brown Teddy

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    Overall I would agree with you that there isn't a huge enough disparity between BMs/MMs right now to make a very compelling case that MMs need a buff. However, I would disagree with the definitive statement that "MM's are already better than BM's at Pink Bean" due to (1) almost the entirety of PB being run on apple, which gives BMs a slight edge versus MMs, and (2) the fact that SI is not readily available in every party all the time, which gives BMs some flexibility edge. BMs/MMs are probably too close in terms of PB viability to say that one is clearly better than the other.
     
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  16. OP
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    Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Wait what if it was the other way around? If mm's could already shoot faster (but slower than with si), would there be a huge enough difference between bm/mm for a speed nerf for mm?
     
  17. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    whatdatoast
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    MMs also have BLIND and their birb freezes. MM are too op.
     
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  18. Ferluci
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    Ferluci Zakum Retired Staff

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    Deleted alot of off-topic comments. Keep it on-topic in the future please
     
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  19. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    I think the last end-game MM's would want to is a nerf on their 75% strafe for better speed base..
    If you do it, you'd nerf bucc and MM -> no one will benefit from this change.

    Speaking on speed - what I'd suggest is to -1 speed all classes(shads nate and mages exception), so they would actually appreciate Si like they do for SE.

    just an opinion.. OnionHypno
     
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  20. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    YUrain
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    I do agree with this mostly, where is it mostly fair tbh. It is just the CWK part, where MM without SI almost have no room for error on the pirate boss. The QOL gap between MM and BM on the pirate boss narrowed after the afk hurricane change, but it is also due to the decrease in QOL from the BM side, instead of actualy QOL improvement for the MM.

    Another thing for MM is also that neschere drop table is really really bad. Good luck farming White Neschere from Dual Birk as compare to it's bow counter part from petri. The other neschere are also not farmable really, and it can't be used to crafting anyway.

    It is not that MM's damage is bad. It is more like the general QOL of MM really can be improved by a bit.
     
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