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Marksman speed?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Maplemaple, Jul 21, 2021.

  1. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Yeah i mean if thats the last thing they want id agree too. Shoot.. Who appreciates damage nerfs right? But if the main concern is about damage for bm's getting out-classed simply from a +1 speed buff for mm's.. im just saying they can reduce the dmg to the point where it wont affect the dps since the extra speed gain is so op that itd still balance it out right? You may hit lower lines but that doesnt mean your dps will change because why? You shoot faster! Though i strongly doubt that there shouldnt be any crucial difference in dps with mm's speed buff even without dmg nerf.. theyre already out-classed even with si according to the chart i see above so o.o they should still benefit from si.. that shouldnt have to change. I meant their default speed without si could be considered to be raised
     
  2. Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    when u get Si u hit max speed. you cant shoot faster than speed 2. so if you nerf MM strafe, they'd do even less dmg... thats why, if anything is to get all classes rely on Si like they are on SE
     
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  3. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    BMs are forced to strafe a lot during body (and left bird statue) due to danger of getting killed by DR. However, BMs can also stay on the left side during body and not get hit by super knockback while MMs are forced to tank all of them (or not use snipe). It's honestly very, very difficult to estimate how they compare to each other during PB. Not having SI is almost never going to be a factor, though, since bucc's ability to push and pull PB generally guarantees several spots reserved for them on each run.
     
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  4. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    BMs can’t outdamage MM with SI on PB body because of snipe, even considering left side BM. We are locked to the right side indeed.
     

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  5. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    MM are good where they are. Slightly better than BM at PB main body and worse at HT even with SI if you have end game gear as MM can’t focus on mid head from the right. Also Mm benefit less from high attack pots, have a harder time pining pirate and need perfect timing snipe to deal less damage than BM free fire. I think blind, cheaper weapons, early game advantage and better mobbing skills make up for the disadvantages.
     
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  6. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Ah yeah i see exactly what you mean and im not for the dmg nerf either. Like you said, you cant shoot any faster than max speed with si. And the data for dmg with si is already there though its from end game perspective. I doubt upping the default speed would have much diff on the dmg output but i was just putting it out there. Didnt think through it enough i guess and i was just fixated on the main concern being the dmg spike which, again, i highly doubt. Wish theres some sort of chart for what things would look like with the default speed buff by lvl range..
     
  7. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    I see. Well what if it was the other way around though? If mm's default speed was faster (but slower with si) now, would there have been some sort of a nerf for them? Speed or dmg wise?
     
  8. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    i don't understand well your question. You mean nerfing MM with SI and boosting non SI MM? This would be a huge nerf for MM overall. Nowadays is not hard to find a bucc and you can mule yourself. I dont even play my character without SI. I think you should play the class and feel it better. You probably haven't experienced it yet to talk about balancing imo. MM is a class that was shit before the hard work from the staff to balance it accordingly. The balance took many patches to being acurate and doesn't need any change.
     
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  9. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Nope thats not what i mean my dude lmao. Never meant nerf mm with si and buffing non-si mm. Nonono home boi im not touching mm with si you trippin. That is good as is. Im SAYING.. IF non-si mm can shoot faster now, would there have been some sort of a nerf? IF as in WHAT IF non-si mm can shoot faster now, but still slower than mm with si ofc, would that lead to some sort of an issue? Does that make sense? Like if you can shoot faster now without si, how would you feel about it? And with si you shoot the way you already do now max speed. Si+mm stays the same. Entiendes?
     
  10. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Yes. So with si bm>mm anyway no? What would be diff if boosting non-si speed is still slower than with si then? I think whether its easy or hard to find a bucc nowadays really depends. Thats case by case. May be easy for you but hard for others. Like how would it turn into a "huge" unbalancing? Really huge? Idk man. You may never play mm without si but there are plenty of mm's out there that plays even without si. Gotta consider them as a whole not just your own pro-ness you know?
     
  11. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Ah ok good good. Thanks for your opinion! Idk where you got the solo dpm from but ok, bro.
     
  12. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    At speed 6 the timings already line up great for Snipe cooldown with just booster and with SI. Speeding up booster wouldn't really do much besides add a delay or decrease Snipe DPS for more Strafe DPS.

    The cast speed of Strafe using a speed 6 crossbow with booster is 720ms, and with SI it goes to 630ms. I'm still not sure if Snipe is exactly the same cast speed but it's either that or 30ms slower. On booster, this lets a Marksman use Snipe followed by 6 Strafes to lead to a total time of 5040ms (or 5070ms) by which time Snipe's cooldown is up and the cycle repeats. With SI, it lets the Marksman use Snipe followed by 7 Strafes to also finish in 5040ms (or 5070ms). It's the natural end to the cycle after which you can begin repeating in either case.

    Lets say for example booster speed is increased to 690ms. In this case you can either go 1 Snipe and 6 Strafes, taking 4830ms, leaving 170ms where you do nothing, or alternatively you can do 1 Snipe and 7 Strafes, taking 5520ms, and losing out on 9.5% of your Snipes but gaining 1 extra strafe.

    It just feels worse than the current speed. You could decrease it to 660ms but then by that point you've basically given every MM SI, the only difference between booster and SI would be 4.7% more Snipes.
     
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  13. OP
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Ah wow i see. That makes sense so itd rather be counter productive to buff booster speed huh? Then buffing will ultimately nerf / wont do much due to the timing.. theres a reason why things are as is i guess haha. Ok well thank you for the nice info. Now idk if the whole cwk situation between bm/mm will ever be tackled as some folks have mentioned here and if so, how, but.. that wasnt really the intent for this post anyway so im satisfied. Thanks again :)
     
  14. Toon
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    i haven't thought of this way. i just followed the common sense (+ speed = +dpm). Thanks for clarifing. Good this reinforce that MM are well balanced on it's attack speed.
     
  15. Toon
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    After our talk here i had a flea in the ear, but then i just forgot this topic. A couple days ago, EdannEdann told me about how pog was his Night Raven's Eye Fast 5 speed 106 att 6 dex and then i brought up the discution that it would be worse than an equivalent neschere. However, i decided to test the actuall numbers so i scrolled a 107 att no dex neschere and tested both with different ranges thresholds.

    First trial: 7.3k attack
    Speed 3: 7.7 dpm average
    Speed 4: 7.3 dpm average

    2nd trial: 5.6 attack
    Speed 3: 6.6 dpm
    Speed 4: 6.2 dpm

    So, yeah, giving MM another speed point would actually buff them
     
  16. Chris
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    Chris Zakum Retired Staff

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    Odd question. Currently I’m a low level MM maxing piercing arrow first (still in progress & understand how stupid this is). Should I just focus on 30ing ravens if I don’t have an SI mule if I want to focus on piercing arrow grinding?
     
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  17. Lirbo
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    Lirbo Slimy

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    lol, no there's no reason to buff MMs at the moment, they're in a very solid spot.
    Their damage is INCREDIBLY high late-game and just falling a bit short from BMs on the end-game, yet they're still better on Pinkbean.
    Each class has its own pros and cons, and the last thing Marksmen should get at the moment is another buff.
     
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  18. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I don't believe I've ever read anything about piercing arrow charging speed (the wind up part where the bar fills) being affected by weapon attack speed. Now maybe the actual cast after you release the button is affected by attack speed, but if so thats probably going to be a very small difference.
    In MapleLegends the full charge duration got reduced from 2 seconds to 0.9 seconds, whereas the difference in casting duration for Arrow Eruption with a faster (3) crossbow (after -2 from booster) compared to fast (4) is 690 vs 720 ms respectively. I doubt the 30ms difference is very relevant (if it also applies to piercing arrow at all) on such a slow skill.

    Does that make sense/help at all? Also, do test out whether you feel a difference in piercing arrow firing speed when using booster vs no booster. Kinda curious to know now :)

    EDIT: So hypothetically lets say:
    Piercing arrow faster (3) speed: 0.9 sec charge + 690 ms cast = 1590 ms total
    Piercing arrow fast (4) speed: 0.9 sec charge + 720 ms cast = 1620 ms total
    However, in Nise's formula compilation I don't see anything regarding piercing arrow... And from watching videos I personally think the skill just gets fired when released? instead of there being an additional delay. In which case the attack speed of the weapon most likely does not affect the skill at all.
     
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  19. Chris
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    Chris Zakum Retired Staff

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    Hmmm seems like it doesn't have an effect on the charge and don't really notice much of a diff on fire as well. Thanks for the info!
     
  20. Toon
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    I don’t think the damage boost justify investing high on ravens. It’s better to invest on a good neschere. Considering u gonna get much more att with an equivalent scrolled neschere, damage may even be equivalent or higher without si. Also, PA grinding scales better as u 1 hit KO. ML5 farming with a hs mule and 1hit KO PA is 16m mesos an hour + 24m eph and gacha.
     
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