What is the worst class?

In that same vein, I might as well voice my complaints about the BM class and how they basically do everything worse than current MMs except for CWKPQ.

LF> BM buffs

 

hurricane looks cool tho

 

Aren't them balanced enough? The BM's independence is a thing, and hamstring can also help a lot on Nameless/BGA.

 

https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/warrior-balanced-change-thread-all.36721/

a throwback to this post last year.

my opinion still stand the same however. heroes as a class is fine - what is not fine is how the major bosses heavily favours single target (or just community in general)

give us new bosses as important as HT and/or PB to cleave and we wont be on that list

 

I have to disagree on this. MM being SI reliant is a big downside. Also, endgame BMs are better at HT as high dpms from MMs there consider pierce arrow wing damage. Also, MM can't focus on mid head from the right side of HT, because buffering doens't work for them. This is pretty annoying and limits ht party composition even further than the reliance on SI. At main body PB, BM is harder to play and damage is worse than MM. However, at statues BMs hit more because apples make their free fire much higher than MMs on apple, so it kinda compensate body damage diference. MMs have to snipe every 5 sec and jump attack, which seems more annoying than buffering. BMs have Hamstring. MM have Blind. Idk, its hard to tell which one is better but id say it's possible to argue on both ways and it's much more about personal choice than relevant game breaking disparity.

Until today i wake up at night and question myself if i should have chosen BM.

 

BM main here. Until today i wake up at night and question myself if i should have chosen NL. And joining ur 100m tip/challenge to delete my hero too.

 

Most people base their assumptions of BM lifestyle off of Serperior's hyper-optimized DPM posts, but people fail to realize that even in ideal conditions, they will never be able to replicate this level of dpm efficiency without the exact same composition (bishop that dispels heads on animation and one-hits darks, meaning party comp splits damage on heads evenly). Most other parties will never have access to that level of optimization, so the upperbound DPM shown by Serperior is most likely being compared to the upper-middle representatives of other classes.

My argument stems from suspicions that MM outrank BM in HT entirely. In the DPM 45 thread, there seems to be little disparity between MM and BM in the upper levels for HT despite MMs having a gigantic upside through most of HTing levels (155-190+). A level 155 MM can easily break 4m dpm 45 while a lvl 155 BM would struggle to break 3m. At level 190, a BM with a perfect bow would probably get somewhere around 6.5-7m dpm, while 18x MMs are posting roughly the same numbers. A hyper-optimized BM at lvl 200 hits ~8m dpm while a lvl 200 MM should be hitting close to 7.5m+ single-target (without using PA, using strafe + snipe on mh by timing iframes/head ducks). The problem is whether or not all of MM optimized techs are being utilized in their current DPM posts, while it's hard to see BMs moving past that 65% dpm efficiency. Your post at 7.8m dpm 45 vs a 11.2m dummy dpm shows a dpm efficiency of 69.9%, but you're not even level 200 yet and posted that with saved AP, so I'm guessing there's room to grow much further - hence my suspicions that fully optimized MM entirely outrank fully optimized BM in HT.

As for PB, I think the same argument holds - the DPM for BM is being shown for hyper-optimized play, so the disparity might not seem as obvious at the moment. Once things pan out over time and more level 200 MMs start posting their improvements, I feel like the gap will only grow further.

Question then becomes - why play BM in 2021?

 

Bowmaster balanced around the 1 guy who does it really well

Corsair buffs forgot that Akash exists

 

Don't let the hero and BM propaganda distract you from the fact that shads have the lowest single target damage while also having lower cleave damage than all warriors

 

This dpm considers PA, so we can’t talk about 69.9% efficiency. My 4 target dummy PA dpm is 19.5m. Wing damage is huge. When i run with a 1 hit ko bishop and strafe snipe only i can’t break 6.8DPM. I’m at 60.7% dpm retaiment. Also, DPM 45 makes PA cleave even more relevant as it’s within those minutes that’s possible to cleave. After that, it’s impossible. The time there are only 3 targets it’s not worth PA anymore. You also have to consider that Skar usually uses Coke pill and soul arrow. I was using HT buff, energizer and diamond arrows. In spite of not having 65 ap from 187-200, this only means ~11 attack less for me. I’m wearing 155 xbow and 18 cape. Gyrk is wearing perf gear too (17 cape 143 xbow and 21 gloves as i recall). I agree that i need to play a lot to achieve skar skill. However, looking into the runs i got the highest dpms i notice that the little mistakes i made would improve dpm but not as much as you believe it’s possible. In the end, a fully optimized BM gonna still be better than a MM at HT. PA inflates dpm 45, but what about the full run (pre heads, discounting wing damage and most ht body where you can’t pa).

Like i said before, this means having SI and not being able to focus mid head from the right. Seems a good pay off. A BM can take another NL while MM needs to take a bucc or mule SI every run (not worth if it’s not 5 men).

MM can’t outdpm equally geared BM with apple at statues. Imo, there’s not much to optimize at pb body as a MM besides sniping at the right time and using all cures on animation, considering that u just spam attacks at the wall if u have a good bucc. The body dpms from fully optimized BMs have shown to pay off the statues dpm. The quality of life it’s indeed much worse.

The way is reading Skar guides and finding good bishops, not buffing one of the best classes.

 

The argument for right side MM inefficiencies can be applied for left side BM inefficiencies. What is MM single target dpm for left side during alternating/desync'd cancels? The main problem for left side BM is if you get cucked from bad avoid, you only get maybe 3-4 hurricane arrows in before getting knocked back down again, whereas an MM can off-load an entire strafe with one open frame. Not to mention the avoid boost they get from blind, which should guarantee a higher dpm efficiency from that skill alone.

As for right side MM tech, I feel like if someone took the time to master MM playstyle, focusing midhead during rh cancel consistently on MM is possible. You'd just need to soak iframe, jump, cast snipe + two or three strafes, and jump back to PA. Or time your strafe when head ducks and PA when it's up while you're waiting for snipe or iframes to come back up. There's just a lot more utility/options that MM have, imo, like wyvern clearing from a single PA charge as soon as they spawn.

The point I do concede is the dependency of SI, though I'd be curious to know what DPM a fully optimized MM can achieve without it.

Also, Skar uses Concentrate and coke pill which roughly averages slightly above a cider.

 

Bow for 30% hoarders in shambles

 

Regarding BM vs. MM in HT, I would contend that BM is still the superior archer. While MMs may have the slight advantage when right head is up, they have a much more significant disadvantage with respect to dealing "useful" damage when it is cancelled. Pierce to mid head is going to be dealing only roughly 3m dpm, and while that may be further supplemented with some occasional strafes and snipes if done from the top plat instead of jump piercing from below, forgoing damage to right arm and wings for a bit more useful damage on mid head, I can't see that amounting to much more than 5m dpm to mid head, which is still a huge departure from normal dpm when attacking right head.

Granted, the disadvantage suffered from the right head/mid head dichotomy is of course relevant only for the right side, which will have a heavier weight on dpm45 given that the majority of the dpm test will likely be done while on right side, so longer dpm tests might have be done by both BMs and MMs to better ascertain MM's relative performance in HT overall and whether it's left side performance will make up for its shortcomings on right side.

As for blind, its utility cannot be denied but it's usefulness is highly contingent on squad composition. The benefit to NLs/shads/warriors is nearly non-existent and more limited for buccs, which means the main beneficiaries are sairs, BMs and bishops, i.e. blind party utility is mostly significant only when your 6-man squad is made up of primarily sairs and/or BMs, one which is highly niche. But to begin with, if we are to speak of blind's party utility as an argument in favor of MM over BM, we cannot gloss over what it cost the squad to acquire it: a ranged attacker slot.

MMs of course require SI to even begin to contest BMs, and that means bringing a bucc over an additional NL, sair, archer or even paly. In other words, to bring blind into the BM vs. MM conversation means to enter a conversation of what is optimal for the squad, and that debate already starts off with a deficit of about 3-4 mil dpm for the MM, which is the net squad dpm loss from bringing a bucc over another NL (less if the squad features other single target beneficiaries of SI, i.e. sairs, paladins or additional MMs). To minimize this deficit, the squad becomes increasingly less optimal and "unusual" as it takes on more sairs, pallies and MMs over NLs. All in all, it is highly unlikely that the utility gained from blind offsets the overall group dpm lost from the opportunity cost of having an additional ranged attacker. Thus BMs are objectively more desirable for the overwhelming majority of one party runs.

 

This is why I'm curious to see what an optimized MM's dpm is without SI.

If I were a sweaty af host that only cared about maximum output of dpm, I'd still take a lvl 180 MM without SI over a 180 BM, especially if the rest of the comp was 4 NLs + bishop. Swap out two of the NLs for a dk and a bucc for HB and TL utility and you've got yourself a pretty scuff proof squad that I'd rather run with over the SE + 4 NL comp.

You have to factor in the learning curve to attain optimized DPM. There's a reason I'm the only BM to post in that HT DPM 45 thread besides Skar. I'd be willing to bet that the average 190 BM still gets out-DPM'd by the average 190 MM, with or without SI.

Lastly, the argument dismissing blind entirely for specific classes is wrong, imo. Sure it might have marginal utility, but balance is a game of margins.

 

Why does everyone post big pp numbers in HT DPM45 thread but complain about their class in this thread?

 

That might be true, but I don't think balance changes should generally be made around the average player. We have Akash pulling 8.7m dpm in HT and over 5m dpm in PB and yet, if we looked only at the average sair we'd probably think sairs are trash and need to be significantly buffed.

Also, to be fair, pres is the only MM besides me and toon to have posted in that thread and that was at level 155 with gears likely significantly better than the average 15x archer so I don't think we even know what the average late game MM looks like.