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What is the worst class?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Selquin, Oct 16, 2021.

What is the worst class?

  1. Hero

    33.3%
  2. DK

    8.1%
  3. Paladin

    17.2%
  4. Shadower

    12.4%
  5. I/L

    4.8%
  6. F/P

    5.1%
  7. Bishop

    3.2%
  8. Corsair

    3.8%
  9. Bucc

    2.4%
  10. BM

    2.4%
  11. MM

    3.0%
  12. NL

    4.3%
  1. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Given end game gears on cider/energizer on end game bosses I'm actually not quite convinced that BM have higher single target dpm than MM with SI.

    Most end game bosses have a good amount of weapon defense, which disproportionately hurts the BM because snipe does 200k damage regardless.

    That being said, I think its perfectly fine if MMs deal more damage than BM (even at end game).
     
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I agree that balancing around the average person is a bad idea, but beyond that, I believe balance should be approached holistically.

    What doesn't make sense to me is that even in the content in which BMs are supposed to shine - end game bossing on attack pots - they're still outclassed by their MM counterparts due to a technicality in coding that allows snipe to bypass global damage reduction. Now, I'm not looking for a MM nerf because I think they're in a good spot and everybody's content with how things are right now. However, it's hard not to feel like BMs are getting the short end of the stick because they, along with Heroes, have long been used as the standards for balancing around all the other classes, hence their lackluster list of changes over the past several years.

    I'm mostly asking for BM buffs facetiously, but I also don't see why rescaling, reworking, or lateral changes couldn't be considered.

    Anyways, here's my class comparison list:
    • Single-target DPM - Marksmen win with Snipe + 5 line Strafe until lvl 190+, Bowmaster advantage situational and up for debate
    • Mob clearing - Marksmen win with Piercing Arrow vs Bowmaster Arrow Rain
    • Cleave damage - Marksmen win with Piercing Arrow vs Bowmaster Arrow Rain
    • Grinding - Marksmen win with Snipe + Piercing Arrow vs Bowmaster Hurricane
    • Party utility - Marksmen Blind vs Bowmaster Hamstring, debatable/tied
    • Damage efficiency - Marksmen should win due to Snipe bypassing damage reduction, Blind increasing dodge rate, and Snipe & Strafe frontloading damage
    • Attack pot/buff scaling - Bowmasters win due to Hurricane scaling with +atk and +avoid
    • Buff dependence - Marksmen require SI for optimal dpm output - scaling and damage comparison to Bowmasters with/without SI is uncertain
    • Party composition - Bowmasters win due to being less buff dependent/flexible with various compositions
    • Advanced tech/optimization - Bowmasters win due to Hurricane control, but indefinite as new MM tech may be discovered
    Feel free to add more to this list in case I missed anything.
     
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  3. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    MMs and BMs generally just spam eruption and arrow rain respectively on the left shelf at 7f. Granted, frostprey freezing the fish does give MMs the slight edge, I suppose.

    MMs are also more wash-friendly given the nature of snipe, for what it's worth.
     
  4. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Maybe a bad take but genuinely curious, wouldn't changing snipe to take resistances into account be a decent way to balance MM so that they don't outshine a BM pretty much everywhere?
     
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  5. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I feel like your list sums up the things that have been said by top tier BMs and MMs in this thread from a somewhat biased perspective.
    Obviously you came into this thread thinking MM>BM, but as a reader I have seen numerous reasons why BM has definite advantages in certain situations. You also seem to overvalue the positive things said about MMs.
    Especially the things concerning party composition (MM requiring SI), the usefulness of PA in clearing spawns (it still has to charge 0.9 seconds) and the usefulness of PA in grinding (I have heard numerous high leveled MMs say that its grinding capability is limited to some maps like ToT while being useless at things like 7f).
    On the other hand you seem to undervalue positive things being said about BMs (mid head HT damage, momentum buffering, better PB statue damage).

    Anyway, I have played neither class so I don't have any input to give, just summarizing the things said here, for me the scales end up more evenly balanced.

    Regarding MM dpm without SI:
    I made this BM/MM dpm comparison a long time ago based on the PB pendant vs chaosed MoN google sheets file Nise provided a while ago. Altering that to adjust for timeless gear and attack damage arrows and such, I found the following DPM comparison:
    upload_2021-10-20_10-48-36.png
    I'm fairly certain these calculations are still correct
    Now despite these being theoretical dpm, I think it has been established that BM and MM have a somewhat similar % efficiency of freefire DPM (despite you still seeming to doubt that because of some unknown, vague MM tricks you allude to). Also, I hope this settles your question whether MM actually require SI or not.

    EDIT: Personally for me the pros and cons of either class seem to balance out pretty well. BMs have some advantages in being generally easier to play (except for PB body and highly optimised HT head strats) and having a higher scaling potential lategame, while MMs require more earlygame mechanical things (jump casting, snipe+strafe timing, SI to knockback some bosses consistently) and provide slightly more utility + situational better mobbing.
    Thus it seems more like the classes are close to eachother enough, and it is a matter of preference which one you would rather play.

    EDIT 2: last note: as the server continues to mature, there will be a power creep in what certain players attain when it comes to gear (25 att gloves when?), thus things like higher attack capes / facestompers might become available, which favours BMs. On top of that things like event ice cream bars with 6 attack put them in a slightly better spot than MMs. I understand that this will only favour the top 1% of the BMs, but the class is known for having better scaling under perfect circumstances.
     
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  6. jefa
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    jefa Slime

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    25 bwg already exists
     
  7. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    BM absolutely destory MM in CWKPQ, it is not even close comparsion for their QOL between the 2 classes there.
    Yes, CWK is not really the meta content now, but it shouldn't be totally forgotten either.

    Edit: Further more, all the above comparsion takes in MM + SI as a default. Which really, is not as easy as you think it is.
     
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  8. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    Considering my freefire dpm snipe only means 19%.

    Let's compare pre head dpm 1 to freefire to get an estimation of % of damage reduced by defence from a Horntail Head.
    dpm 1 Pre Head: 9.5
    dpm 1 free fire: 11.2

    now lets take off snipe damage
    9.5- 2.1= 7.4
    11.2 - 2.1= 9.1

    81.3% strafe damage retaiment

    Now let's take snipe damage and transform into strafe damage 2.1m x 0.813= 1.707m dpm

    Considering those estimations, i would have a 392.7k dpm loss. This only means 3.5% dpm advantage from avoiding w defence 19% of the dpm. It's important to consider that hortail head has one of the highest defence in the game so dpm loss would be even less in most bossing situations.
     
  9. kissMagE
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    kissMagE Selkie Jr.

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    [​IMG]
     
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  10. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    How many billions in gear do you think an end game bowmaster would need to gain another 3.5% dpm?

    While HT might have one of the higher defenses, it is not far behind those of pink bean / statues, and there are some expeditions with far higher defense. THE BOSS has 5000 defense (more than double of HT).

    Essentially, when MM strafe was buffed, one of the key balancing points was when MM dpm and BM dpm reach parity (because MM dpm starts higher due to strafe). MM was buffed because it was determined that the parity point came too early, so MM was buffed to push this point back into end game. I am claiming that because of defense reduction (which hurts BM more than MM because BMs have lower range than equivalent MM), there might not even be a point in end game on low att pots (cider) that BM > MM.

    BM might only be greater than MM with end game equips on apple, because defense effectively reduces your characters range.

    Once again, I'm completely fine with MM having higher in practice DPM, because hitting frame perfect snipes for the duration of an entire boss is probably non trivial.
     
  11. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    8TEEN8TEEN only you can end this war by posting your HT and PB DPMs
     
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  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is my main concern. In the content where BMs should be appling, MMs still out DPM due to a coding technicality. Skar already mentioned that the gap between highest statue DPM isn't all that much. In all other areas of content (outside of aforementioned CWKPQ), MMs seem to outshine BMs. I'm not looking for theorized DPM projections tests in a vacuum with unrealistic conditions - I'd rather see raw data from realistic situations. It seems like a lot of balancing has been done using the former hence the discrepancy in the latter.

    R> More BM and MM DPM posts for both HT and PB

    Edit: Also, derailing threads is the only way to keep forums entertaining.
     
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  13. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    I agree that 3.5% difference is not trivial, but i suspect that the slightly higher freefire from BM evens the defense advantage MM has in bossing situations, considering perfect snipping. Maybe not for The Boss like you mentioned but BMs are much better there because of hamstring anyways.
     
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  14. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I remember reading somewhere that back in GMS snipe also hit a flat 199k on PB without damage reduction, so I’m not sure calling it a coding technicality is justified. Anyhow, I could be wrong or the person who said that could be wrong. Does anyone know?
     
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    You're right - I'm conflating Snipe max damage with Heaven's Hammer max damage, where HH damage was hard-coded. That has since been changed in Legends, where HH is now customized to deal only 50k on bosses.
     
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  16. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    I think the reason people tend to compare theoretical damage is 1. it is easier and 2. there is a disparity in gear between players. The only way to obtain a noteworthy comparison between MM and BM's practical DPM is by having two exactly equally skilled players with exactly equivalent gear run on the same run under similar circumstances a large number of times and then average their DPMs. I don't see that happening.
    I remember Nise posting in that same PB pendant vs chaosed MoN thread an overview of realistic PB and HT theoretical DPM (which did factor in the 50% physical damage reduction) though I am not sure it factored in weapon defense. By all means, run the calculations for a realistic situation (considering w.def and hit rate) and it might reveal more than comparing players with very different gear makeups.

    EDIT: more info could be derived from HT/PB DPM threads if people posted their total att / str / dex / int / luk and you would analyze that data. However, people sadly don't. Otherwise we could have some fun uwu ~
     
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    There's quite a bit more to it than just uninterrupted free fire dpm. Avoid factors in a ton, and I'm guessing the damage reduction between BMs and MMs from getting hit is quite vast. For simplicity sake, let's say 1 MM strafe = 1 second of BM hurricane (if someone can calculate actual time involved to reach equal damage I'd appreciate it). The reason why strafe is more damage efficient is because the damage is front-loaded all at once while BMs are required to be uninterrupted for a certain amount of time to achieve the same output. Also take into consideration the delay of starting up the Hurricane animation. You'll start to see there's a big gap in damage output efficiency when looking at realistic situations where the attacker is getting hit, repositioning, and restarting the attack animation.

    Now add in Snipe, where you're hitting more than 1 strafe's worth of damage into one attack, and you can see why there is/should be a disparity.

    Edit:
    My explanation for why the MM vs BM debate is even relevant to this thread - if it is found that effective MM dpm without SI is greater than effective BM dpm, there is no scenario in which BMs would be favorable over MM. BMs offer no additional utility over MMs and are a much higher liability (steeper learning curve to achieve equal dpm, greater chance at dying).

    The same plight currently exists for Heroes - why choose Hero over DK when they offer the same DPM output with no additional utility?
     
  18. OP
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    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    This has more or less already been done using the many dpm tests on the HT and PB dpm threads, perhaps not publicly and not without some error bars, but the conclusions I mentioned on the previous page are the same.
    -MM and BM are comparable at HT
    -MM is for sure better at PB
    -non-endgame MM > non-endgame BM
     
  19. 8TEEN
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    8TEEN Pink Teddy

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    wat da, got pinged by mi moob to this avalanche of SE debate.

    This is dumb. How did the spotlight move from which SE is worse, when the huge problem on the thread is not recognizing that DKs are indeed in need of a buff bc they suck

    Consider this: With everyone creating new mules to either hexamage farm or wash even harder on their new attacker for 8teen man pink beans - its only a matter of time that DKs are gunna get muled and be irrelevant in both pb and ht.
    But yet the dpm with the use of sky skis, psbs, timeless spears doesn't validate their price in today's market.

    Why is this class not recognised or brought up on this thread instead?
     
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  20. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    DK might be bad but at least we aren’t heroes
     
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