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Overview of NT Changes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Gurk, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    While I'm banned, I thought I'd post a brief overview regarding NT buffs to hopefully give a rough idea as to how much NT was buffed and whether or not it's in a good enough place now. For those who are unaware, NT (Neo Tokyo) recently received a revamp whereby boss drop rates were increased while number of signs were restricted to 6. Unfortunately, I have very little drop data on Nibergen and Dunas (#BuffDunasExp) as I rarely run them so the following stats will be primarily centered around Verga and Nameless.


    pre-buff_verga.PNG

    pre-buff_nameless.PNG

    post-buff_verga.PNG

    post-buff_nameless.PNG

    Verga Results:
    EV has gone up about 70.7% (from 2.9m to 4.9m).
    Median value has gone up about 360% (from 400k to 1.4m).
    Average # of drops has increased by about 1.8x (from 1.97 to 3.56).

    We can see that a typical Verga run feels much better than it did before when looking at the changes to the median value. With a strong duo that can clear in 20 minutes, the meso/hr of Verga is now roughly 7.35m.

    If we take into account coins and value them at 10,000 mesos each (based on current market price of MTKs and its crafting mats), this meso/figure increases by 3m for each character that a player brings in, which brings the meso/hr to at least 10.35m, which is almost comparable to raw farming ulu2 with a mage. If each player brings in 3 characters, this brings the meso/hr to 16.35m, which is not much worse than selling ulu2 leech.

    Nameless Results:
    EV has dropped about 22.4% (from 9.8m to 7.6m).
    Median value has gone up about 196% (from 700k to 1.4m).
    Average # of drops has increased by about 2x (from 1.85 to 3.76).

    Like with Verga, a typical Nameless run is now much less depressing. EV has dropped, which seems odd but is understandable given the smaller sample size and how dependent the EV is on rare MTK drops. There were 3 MTK drops in the 74 runs before the NT changes (all 3 dropped in one week) and only 1 MTK drop in the 51 runs after the NT changes. I am inclined to believe the drop rate of MTKs is more accurately reflected in the runs following the changes and that we were simply very lucky before, given that there were no armor-piercing bullet drops in the 187 Verga runs before the changes and only 1 in the 54 runs after the changes and only 1 armor-piercing bullet drop in the 74 Nameless runs before the changes, with the assumption that armor-piercing bullets would have a similar drop rate to MTKs.

    With a strong duo that can clear in 25 minutes, the meso/hr of Nameless is now roughly 9.5m. If we take into account coins and value them at 10,000 mesos each (based on current market price of MTKs and its crafting mats), this meso/hr figure increases by 2.4m for each character a player brings in, which brings the meso/hr to at least 11.9m, which rivals raw farming ulu2 with a mage. If each player brings in 3 characters, this brings the meso/hr to 16.7m/hr, which just about rivals selling ulu2 leech.

    Conclusion:
    As long as there is enough demand for MTKs, NT certainly does seem like content worth doing now. In fact, it may even be superior to HT in both mesos and exp now. 6-man HT has a meso/hr figure of around 10m and an eph of about 50m, while duo Verga has an eph of about 75m and Nameless has an eph of about 50m. Even when removing coins from the equation, Nameless is comparable to HT in both meso/hr and eph, whereas Verga's meso/hr is about 25% less but has an eph about 50% higher.

    Though I don't have much drop data on Dunas and Nibergen, I suspect that the stats would closely mirror that of Nameless'. Dunas has an almost identical drop table to Nameless, with the primary differences being the Armor-Piercing bullet that Nameless has and NT claw that Dunas has, and Nibergen drops Element Pierce, which is comparable to MTK. Dunas exp is almost half that of Nameless however, while taking a similar time to clear, and Nibergen exp is identical to Verga's but takes about 25% longer to clear.

    Another interesting piece of data to note is that out of 109 NT runs, only 6 prestigious coins dropped. That's a drop rate of about 5.5%. If we value a prestigious coin at about 10m (with the expectation that WS prices will significantly drop), then prestigious coins will only add a small 550k to NT EV if the prestigious coin system is implemented.

    While the addition of the restriction to the number of characters that can enter NT certainly significantly lowered the meso/hr ceiling with coin muling, coin muling still makes up a significant portion of NT profits, for better or worse.
     
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  2. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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  3. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    With MTKs being at an all-time low now, a coin is now worth roughly 5k, which is a whopping 50% drop from before. After adding about 20 more runs to both Verga and Nameless and updating the prices of some drops, Verga EV has remained relatively unchanged at 4.9m, whereas Nameless EV has dropped by about 17% to 6.3m (still only 1 MTK drop in 68 kills, which I presume is unlucky following the NT buffs). This currently translates to the following profits:

    Duo Verga (20 min runs): 2.5m per run (+0.5m/char w/ coins), 7.4m/hr (+1.5m/hr per char w/ coins)
    Duo Nameless (25 min runs): 3.2m per run (+0.4m/char w/ coins), 7.5m/hr (+1m/hr per char w/ coins)

    Trio Verga (15 min runs): 1.6m per run (+0.5m/char w/ coins), 6.5m/hr (+2m/hr per char w/ coins)
    Trio Nameless (20 min runs): 2.1m per run (+0.4m/char w/ coins), 6.3m/hr (+1.2m/hr per char w/ coins)
     
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Do you happen to know how many NT weapons dropped and how many were sold in market vs npc'd?
     
  5. mard
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    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

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    I figured that this would happen as the number of people running NT went up. I think the comparison with HT in the initial post is a bit skewed though since most squads aren't doing non stop horntail (most people take like a 10/15 minute break in between, and you have to do the prequest every time) so the value of doing a HT is probably considerably less than 50m/hr in exp or 10m/hr in mesos. There isn't really as much extra time you have to account for when you're doing NT with a duo or trio though.
     
  6. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    8 NT weapons dropped in the last 147 runs since buffs, which is a 5.4% drop rate. Every single one was mediocre or trash and was promptly npc'd, boomed or stashed away. The values I've attributed to them in my spreadsheet are just their rough average values, so my actual profits from NT thus far are actually lower than my reported stats.

    8 is also coincidentally the exact amount of prestigious coins that have dropped.
     
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  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Assuming 80 coins on average per run, with 6 coin mules every run, the total yield of 147 runs is 70,560 coins or 15.68 crafts. Assuming 4 runs a day, that’s about 24-25 total NT weapons crafted amongst 6 characters in a little over a month of pure NT dailies. That isn’t as bad as I had imagined, but I still think it could use a buff. Currently the means to produce NT weapons is too slow, IMO.
     
  8. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Though I agree with the overall sentiment if one isn't caving, the breaks and prequest don't lower the mph too much relatively, especially considering for NT it usually takes me roughly 2-3 minutes to move all my characters over before spawning boss again, which would deflate mph by about 10% if you factor it in.

    In my experience, breaks for HT are usually 5-10 minutes so let's just go with 10. Assuming one run takes about 90 minutes, a break in between runs makes two runs of HT about 5% longer (180 mins -> 190 mins). Now if we assume finding a dagger takes about half an hour of active grinding and that we make about 5m/hr from cornians during that time (more if you use a mage with MU), and that you aren't going to simply camp manon for an hour while doing nothing else when you otherwise would have been doing something more productive (you can just leave a char there to alert you to when manon spawns while doing other things, or just leech off of manons that your friends find like I often do :)), and that collecting skins and walking all over the place takes an additional 10 minutes, then the overall length of time has increased from 190 to 230 mins.

    78.3% of that time is spent in HT making about 30m on average and 17.4% of that time is spent doing the prequest and making about 3m on average. That means you've made about 33m in 230 mins, which is about 8.6m/hr, which is still a bit higher than doing duo NT with just one char receiving coins, if you factor in the 2-3 minute downtime in between runs. And to be fair, my run time estimates for NT are making use of fairly strong attackers. A 6-man HT squad composed of only such attackers would finish a run in about 75 minutes, which would increase mph of HT back up to 10m anyways. EPH would certainly take more of a tank though, but I can't really comment on it as I'm not really sure what one gets while farming cornians.
     
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  9. mard
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    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

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    That's true, I forgot to factor in the time spent to move the coin mules over as well. At the end of the day, I'm just a bit surprised that even with fairly strong attackers you only get ~8-9m/hr, considering that's about one would expect to get doing 7F (while gaining significantly more exp). I think it's just a bit disheartening to see the mediocre rewards for doing content.
     
  10. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Yeah, definitely. Bossing should always be one of the most rewarding content in MMORPGs, as it is in basically every other game, as it forms the crux of the server. When bossing is no longer all that rewarding, the foundation of the game starts to crumble and players have to create their own arbitrary incentives just to keep themselves going. That just kind of ties back into the dilemma of what use is there in getting stronger when one can make considerably more money with a naked level 130 AM? Sure, bossing is more fun than grinding, farming or selling leech but you don't need particularly good gear to participate past some arbitrary entry-level standard. Better gear only helps to clear a bit faster or to "white", which only serves to contribute to some sense of accomplishment, but that feeling grows ever shallow when there are no tangibles associated with it.

    Anyways, that's going on a bit of a tangent. I just wish bossing could at the very least be comparable to farming. The currently proposed prestigious coin system is not going to move the needle either without very significant changes. With what seems to be about a 5% drop rate for NT and only double that for HT, prestigious coins would only increase EV of a run by 500k to 1m. There needs to be an overhaul of bossing in general.
     
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  11. OP
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Added about another 30 runs worth of drop data to Verga and 40 runs worth to Nameless (viewable in spreadsheet). Along with a few minor updates to the market prices of drops, EV of both have continued to drop.

    Verga:
    verga.PNG

    Average Verga run has dropped about 17% from 4.9m to 4.1m.
    For a 20 minute duo, that translates to 6.12m/hr.
    Including coins (valued at 5k each), this meso/hr increases by 1.5m per char brought in.

    Nameless:
    nameless.PNG

    Average Nameless run has dropped about 22% from 6.3m to 4.9m. Still only 1 MTK in 115 runs :rolleyes:
    For a 25 minute duo, that translates to 5.93m/hr.
    Including coins (valued at 5k each), this meso/hr increases by 960k per char brought in.

    How do you guys feel about the current state of NT, especially in light of the fact that coins are very difficult to liquidate now? Is it still in a fine place or does it leave something to be desired?

    Also, obligatory #BuffDunasExp.
     
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  12. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    Drop wise it's better than before but if you only care about money then you'd just mage farm instead. I don't personally sell coins, I only craft and having a 10% chance at a usable weapon is starting to get old when you get coins much slower than before.

    Verga & Nameless are good exp, but meso wise is not really worth it

    Dunas is quite poor exp AND drop wise, most people I know either dont bother with it or just run it until they get the chair. Even it's scroll/equip rates seem worse than the other bosses.

    Nibergen is borderline intolerable with the cancel spam, it's not worth it without an il mage. I dont even care about the exp or drops its just terrible sitting there doing nothing 50% of the time. If you do run it, you have to take more people to finish in a reasonable time with the cancels, which means less coins & splits.

    I will say that after the 6 person limit, I found most squads just downsized instead of cutting mules. If anything people just mule harder because you have to run with less actual people to obtain a similar rate of progress to before.

    If there's anything I would do to "fix" NT I'd either:
    - buff the coins given per char per clear, or
    - remove the 6 person limit

    Also do something about nibergen's cancels please
     
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  13. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I think its fair to ask that a strong NT duo with each player having 3 chars to get coins from be comparable to farming ulu2 with meso+up and self leeching an attacker.

    Assuming prestigious coins deflate white scrolls (wishful thinking, i know) to 225m, each coin is worth ~15m, and at 5% drop rate, we can add 750k to each of gurk's EV. With this we have:
    20 minute verga duo with 3 chars for coin: 6.12 + 0.75*60/20 + 1.5*3 = 12.87m per hour.
    Now, lets add the exp you will get from a verga duo to this at 1:4.
    Assuming 2x rates, and an equally split duo with holy symbol we get: (3.1+4.2+5.3)*2*1.8*0.5 = 22.68m exp, and at 20 mins duo this is 68.04m eph, which is quite good.

    For nameless we have:
    5.93 + 0.75*60/25 + 0.96*3 = 10.61m per hour.

    Exp:
    10.3*2*1.8*0.5 = 18.54m exp. At 25mins duo this is 44.5m eph, which is okay.

    Farming ulu2 with mesos up is roughly 15m per hour after gacha and pots (when using a 1hit bishop with 30k mp), without including exp from self leech. So, I think its fair to say that neo tokyo duo with 3 coin characters per player will be comparable to ulu2 once you factor in the exp from NT if prestige coins are implemented.

    Of course, if you don't need the exp, you are best off mage farming.
     
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  14. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Currently, my Verga EV post-buff is about 48% higher than it was pre-buff, which sounds amazing until you realize pre-buff EV was about 2.7m. And amusingly enough, my Nameless EV is much lower (by 43%) than it was pre-buff, presumably because I was either very lucky with the 3 MTKs in 74 runs pre-buff or very unlucky with the current 1 MTK in 117 runs.

    Nameless is kind of meh exp but it's super afk content so I don't mind doing it.

    I'm just waiting for an exp buff for Dunas until I start running it regularly. I would practically treat that as new content.

    I'm hoping that the fix to HT head cancels next patch that will make them behave more naturally as opposed to constantly alternating will also affect nib's cancel spam and boss skill CDs in general. Used to be much more tolerable.

    I do think that with the lowered coin production, it does seem like it might be appropriate to also lower the crafting cost of weapons. Crafting NT weapons has always been "overpriced" relative to their benefits over dragon weapons but I suppose it was alright then because they were the best-in-slot weapons. With timeless/reverse being a thing now though, it's hard to justify spending about 35m for a NT craft for potentially 1-2 att more over dragon weapons when the latter cost about 3-4m to craft, and its made even worse with the knowledge that something that costs less coins to craft, i.e. MTK, generates more profit on average. I think it would be great if NT crafting was lowered to match MTKs, which would put a wep craft at about 17.5m.
     
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