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We need a white scroll merchant

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by farys77, Dec 16, 2021.

  1. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Playing devil's advocate here, but if there is an unlimited supply of WS, the end-game players would flock to perfecting every part of their gear at that point, and thereby shift the goal post as what is "end game". While as the casuals would be barely scrapping by making one end game weapon. The disparity between top 1% and the rest would still exist, and possibly even widen.

    With less player-to-player trade, as the most important transaction would become player-to-NPC (with a ws merchant), mage meso-farming would become much better than bossing (than it already is). Which would once again, just add to that disparity between the top 1% of sweaties that hexa-mage or whatever and casual people.

    (once again, just playing devil's advocate for the other side)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
  2. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    My counter to this is that casuals are already scraping by trying to perfect a weapon. And without controlled WS/CS prices it will become more and more difficult for casuals as the mesos generated from multimage has no sink other than pots which don't even make a dent. If WS prices keep rising (which it should assuming fixed demand and more mesos printed), then theres only so many 4-hr dragons a casual can commit to before they go mad. With uncontrolled prices, I would argue the casual vs no-life disparity is even greater.

    You are right that mage meso-printing would be the optimal path to end game. But it already is. Further, why would meso-printing become better than it is now? This would only be true if bossing income became worse and I don't see how a WS merchant would affect that. The benefit of controlled WS prices is that casuals now have a choice: (1) the optimal mage farm or (2) bossing. Right now, the choice is mage farm or possibly spend 2 years of your life HTing.

    And even more significantly, a WS merchant is a meso neutralizer; nothing should inflate in value if all this generated meso goes toward NPC purchases. It could cause deflation of other gachables/equips if more ppl turn to multimage but this can be tuned with nerfs and is a minor detail.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  3. OP
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    farys77
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    farys77 Orange Mushroom

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    Yes but people who can afford to shell out enough billions to try to perfect all their gear from the npc can probably afford to buy perf gear anyways. This merchant gives all players the opportunity to at least try to perfect their gear.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  4. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I'm not an endgame player or pursuing whitescrolls, but I think this is true so I'm going to say it anyways. Not all gear effects you equally (which is why everyone goes weapon first) and getting primarily your weapon first is the easiest and most substantial gear gain you will ever get. The rest is massively diminishing returns on investment until the point at which you're spending billions for nth percentiles. The "expected gear" for an endgamer will surely shift, but the actual game impact of having the gear won't, so people won't really know about your gear by a glance, or better yet, won't care. But hey, my mindset of performance efficacy is probably a little off from the crazy hardcore grinders who want a full inventory of perfect gear just to flex it, not to actually use it. I don't get that.

    edit: bonus meme, what if it was chaos scrolls instead but cheaper? A real casino.
     
  5. ThiagoPool
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    ThiagoPool Red Snail

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    The supply of ws was never an issue imo, I do vaguely remember someone on discord quoting one of staff that there were something like 500+ white scrolls in the server meaning 90%+ of all ws are just sitting around as an investment. And even at 150m it would cost 1.5 billion mesos on average to perfect 1 slot, that is still out of reach for most players.

    An entire looting mechanism was removed when ws prices climbed to 170m. They are 250m now and on their way to 300 which basically turns this server into farmstory. Surely something must be done at this point? Or revert back sweeper changes so we can keep up with these outrageous prices?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Hmm, I think this is a moot point when we think it through but I might be terribly wrong, this is my interpretation:

    Without NPC
    End-game buys ws from non-end-game players = transference of wealth = raising the purchasing power of non-end-game player

    Sure, they now get to buy non-end-game equipment quicker which decreases the dpm disparity, but they also reach to end-game goals quicker.
    IF we assumed that at the start we have a balance supply and demand ratio, the ws prices wouldn't increase.
    However, as times go by, the demand will be increasing at a faster rate since non-end-game player reaches end-game state faster.
    Thus, the prices will increase faster since the ratio of end-game to non-end-game player increases which also can be interpreted as the increase of ws demand to supply ratio.
    This seem to be the current state of the server since many of the 'decent' equips are relatively cheap while the 'end-game' equips continually scale according to the ws prices.
    Also, the increasing disparity of the difficulty level between 'decent' and end-game equips is very frustrating and just encourages defeat since the progress to the latter requires a huge leap in income method.

    The ws price issue is a problem of multiple factor, I'm not exactly sure which factor has the bigger influence but the biggest interest of an NPC limit is to introduce a hard limit and a recognition of the hard work that is attempted to perfect an equip.
    With the current price of 250m per ws, it is expected to cost 2.5b to finish 1 slot, which is also the same as spending ~60 hours on the most efficient mage farming method to achieve so while on the more casual mage ulu2 farming or HT killing method, it would take like ~200 hours to achieve.
    With that much time invested into the game, I think it's fair that the server allows for the power creep so that people feel rewarded for their hard work. (When people are rewarded for their hard work, it is also less likely that they keep looking for the more sweaty income method.)
    On the other hand, without a hard limit, ws prices will just increase indefinitely and it would just be increasingly hard to obtain end-game equips. For those that still insist on getting end-game equips, the only viable method would be the most sweatiest method while everyone else can just give up on getting end-game equips.

    Let me know if I miss out something or wrong, I just don't think the disparity argument is in the correct interpretation.



    BTW, I also think you forgot about the disclaimer of "THIS IS PURELY PERSONAL RESPONSE AND IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF STAFF"
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    So is it the 150m thats too "affordable" or is it the availability because its unlimited? There are lots of items that dont even show on owl but that doesnt make them expensive just because theyre rare. It has to do with demands right? I mean just make everyone that bought all their scrolls for cheaper than it is now pay up the differences then. Are ws/cs 300m yet? Gfa 30s went from like 5m or something to 20m now? Idk havent owled em in a while but whatever theyre at now, make it so that every single purchases done so far match the diff. Ppl who can afford em will afford it anyway. Make it consistent. One way or another.

    You dont wanna get rid of washing completely because you dont want to make all that time ppl spent on voting go to waste. Same for ppl that put their work in for meso double-triple+ the effort. Boss drop is rng so not much diff there then and now, skele/petri leech aint 8-9m anymore vs 4-5m nowadays but then again eph is lower so makes sense i guess idk, monsters dont drop double-triple meso for the grinders/farmers so ultimately its just a matter of time, how active/willing and lucky you are. Then you have someone that spend double,triple, quad, or even more amount than the actual value of the item but you see another person spend prob like half and get lucky with that rng. Time is spent either way not just voting, just as washing is part of the game. Im pretty sure having this merchant wont act as a problem solver anyway. Theres never going to be an ultimate solution as long as player to player (human) and rng is involved. Thats just human nature lmao ppl prob gonna hoard and inflate other shit even more. Watch int/gfa 30s go up to 50m zzz

    Chars/qol shouldnt be the only things being balanced and fixed. I think economy should be controlled as well to a certain degree. Limit how many the npc can sell per week with lvl restriction and at the same time make it anti-abuse somehow. Price should still go down. It doesnt have to provide unlimited supply if doing so somehow makes it "too easy" but it wouldnt really matter anyway in the long run just saying
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    Those scrolls are grindable, ws aren't. (Not practically, you can grind thousands of hours and never see one)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    time to hoard elemental wands then, start grieving mages for real xD
     
  10. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I'm a moderately casual player and i've gotten like 6 ele wand drops. They're not so rare that you can single handedly destroy the potential of getting one. But you can drive the price up, on any scarce items. If you are so inclined. People can just choose not to participate in your schemes and take an alternative til you lose money on investment though.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    WS ain't that rare too. As stated in previois replies, Kimmy stated there are alot of them in game. Why would people still hoard them?

    Also, as a casual player (one char till lvl 169 in 2 years) so far I got 2 CS, 1 WS and 3 ele wands so :/
     
  12. Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    Some arent grindable and some are yeah
     
  13. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I'm not sure why you think WS aren't rare because people are hoarding them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Loug
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    Probably because they're the most valuable scrolls in the game and their price will keep going up, since we don't have meso tokens and hitting meso cap is pointless.

    EDIT: bad grammar
     
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  15. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    People hoard them to use as currency. This is the most important item in game, hence as long as they are tradable, its guaranteed that someone will always need them, regardless whether they are common or rare. Add in the tax-free effect, how else would u choose to avoid tax?
     
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  16. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    I think the overwhelmingly largest reason this is a dangerous implementation is because it's an extremely severe punishment to ws holders. If there's any possibility this is on the horizon, people will stop buying at market value until it arrives, and holders will lose billions. Now I'm all for hating the 1%ers, but that's way too brutal. Maybe there's some people holding maliciously to drive value up, but I doubt everyone is, but there's also probably holding for mesos volume as Cak33Cak33 said, which means their assets will arbitrarily plummet. I think if an implementation like this were to be decided upon, those dudes need some fair shakes.

    As for scarcity, ya'll are overestimating volume. 900 ws could be gone in a month if they were made untradable. 900ws aren't even enough to make one person's inventory perfect. That's the entire servers economy.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  17. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    end game players would flock to perfect every part of gear. what does one do with excess mesos anyway?

    the prestigious coin systems (if it works) is an attempt to protect the market from said inflation, i.e. goal posts (you xx runs and get 1 ws on avg even if ws goes 500m). It would work with or without an npc that sells ws. so this is 1 part of the solution. It does not combat inflation and never will.

    What does an npc that sells WS does? Stop inflation, gates the effort (be it mage farming/bossing) to reward.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Maplemaple
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    Maplemaple Orange Mushroom

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    So is it ok to keep inflating? Maybe it shouldnt have inflated in the first place idk. Ws shouldnt even be the main currency anyway. Fairness can go for buyers too now compared to when they were alot less. Are there ppl buying at 250m just to hoard it hoping for the price to go up? Maybe alot of those couldve been bought out earlier when they were cheaper who knows. Regardless youre hoarding for value thats not meso and expecting it to keep rising. Making free bucks idk how thats losing meso more like its just setting back in its place. Ppl tryna do stocks at their own risk but they dont always rise. It can fall too. It doesnt make sense for this to be a punishment if its also an issue. Its like asking why youre getting punished for abusing a bug LOL not saying its the same thing. Just an example
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. OP
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    farys77
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    farys77 Orange Mushroom

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    It's not a punishment, they took the risk to hoard in hopes of prices rising - its like people who buy houses in hopes that it'll inflate but a crash is always possible ‍♀️
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    People hold assets that are liquidatable because they can't hold lump sums of mesos. It's not purely hoarding for price hiking. Sure there's probably some bad actors, but *if* this were to be implemented, it would be fair to minimize the impact on the holders. Just because you guys are envious of them doesn't mean they should lose 2billion mesos.
     

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