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My honest thoughts on hp washing as a gameplay mechanic

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PowderedJinx, Jan 27, 2022.

  1. PowderedJinx
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    PowderedJinx Mushmom

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    I think MapleLegends is great. When it comes to maple private servers, it is my absolute favorite to play. The rates are very fair and competitive, the game feels challenging and rewarding, and the custom QoL changes are very good, adding alot more nuance and fun to the game without taking away the challenging aspect old school Maple is known for. And, of course, the admin team and the community as a whole are very welcoming and wholesome and friendly.

    However, I feel there is one main factor that I feel prevents me from loving this server even more, and that is HP washing.

    In a nutshell, I think the worst part of HP washing is simply the fact that it makes the game very anti-noob friendly, and I think the core reason is because it limits what classes a new player can choose. In my experiences as someone who used to play Maple Story in my youth, one of the most fun parts of the Maple experience was discussing with friends what classes we wanted to create and what role we wanted to fill. It added a sense of adventure and a fun individualistic aspect to playing with friends where everyone had different abilities and playstyles that I really like. In my opinion, however, this aspect becomes ruined when HP washing becomes a necessity. Now, of course HP washing is technically optional and it is very possible to enjoy the game without HP washing at all, but due to the Bishop/hp washing meta it becomes very easy to feel pressured to partake in HP washing as well in order to be just as viable as other players who HP wash.

    Going back to the example of the varying classes, HP washing effectively ruins this factor as it prevents players from being able to choose classes such as the Assassin, Gunslinger, and the two Archers without questioning whether or not they should focus on HP washing. What this does is creates a meta where most new players choose to make a Bishop first in order to fund and leech their ideal ranged class character in order to make them as viable in the meta as possible. This in turn ruins the dynamic I discussed above, as a huge part of what makes starting a new character in Maple so fun is essentially ruined when most people prefer to go the safe route in what is the Bishop meta. Now of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with maining a Bishop or wanting to be able to fund a new character later down the line, but in my experiences playing this server I have met so many other people who wanted to make an Assassin/Gunslinger/Archer first, but chose to make a Bishop instead as it was the more viable and meta route.

    Speaking from personal experience, after returning to the game after several years of absence, I too was hesitant on making a ranged character, instead opting to create a Warrior as HP washing is not so intensive for melee classes. I also feel less motivation to continue on my original character, a lvl 8X Outlaw, as I have no INT equips or Bishop to even think about HP washing.

    In a nutshell, I feel HP washing adds an unnecessary layer of pressure onto a game which should encourage diversity in its classes and roles, instead creating a meta involving Bishops, leech, and funding for alternate characters which simply isn't fun. These are just my personal thoughts, I still think MapleLegends is an incredible server with alot of hard work and dedication put into it, but I just wanted to let my thoughts out there and share some of the frustrations I've felt before in my time in this server.
     
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  2. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    While I (and presumably a lot of other people) share your sentiment to varying degrees, you're probably the 50th person to write this thread and it has simply proven difficult to provide a workable solution.

    Edit; I did want to mention that the burden of washing is often exaggerated. Multiple people have proven that an unfunded, first character can be washed to bossing thresholds without heavily relying on leech and whatever.
     
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  3. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    1:07 PM
    51st here. disclaimer, i have a 30k hp nl in the works.
    totally agree with the OG post. sometimes i do wonder if bossing could yield hp additions (say a cube or something which u turn it in with mesos for hp addition to your character)
    i agree this will invalidate the works of past players who voted fervently and leeched like mad but i feel legends has got to adapt to changing times.

    this will then allow both bossing/purchasing for said cubes and hp washing to co-exist.
     
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  4. Authoxic
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    Authoxic Red Snail

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    I completely agree! I wanted to make a Bowmaster but just the thought of all the work I would have to put in JUST TO WASH turned me away. I ended up making a Shadower just because they can wash lightly and still survive end game bosses. But because I am unfunded and can’t afford INT equip, I did pump quite a bit of base INT into my character and my damage shows it. While I love the game, my family and I chose character around the idea of HP washing and how we did not want to have that added pressure. You would think that as a private server they would find a fix to this. Maybe HB having an increase effect while at end game bosses or and item that will boost your HP (Similar to Onyx Apples for damage). I’m sure there is a way, but because some already spend so much time and NX washing their characters, I feel changes will never be made because it will be “unfair” and anyone that starts new and plans to stick around will have to choose a class based on what doesn’t need washing rather than the class they would enjoy. How I wish I could have an archer with 300 INT hanging off a rope while I use a Bishop to leech myself to 120 . Just the fact that I have to save so much NX for washes and seeing how much weaker I am than those who don’t need to pump base INT for washing is very discouraging to say the least.
     
  5. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    1:07 PM
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    You don't need to wash like crazy amount to like 20k, light washing with HB is enough for most of the game already.
    There is a bossing HP guide by nise around here, Eg. you can already Horntail with 7k HP with HB.

    You can seek out more experienced player for their advice if you are serious about playing, and most of them can easily advise you on how much you should wash.
     
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  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    It's just a matter of perspective. The way I see this game for a new player, you start off with beginner classes like warriors, shadowers, and mages, and over time, as you vote on your alt, you unlock other classes.

    It doesn't take that much NX to start your heavier washing projects (~700k+ NX, or 100 days of voting, less if 2x, NX tickets, and events). You won't even get your original character to end-game before you can start your fully washed ranged attacker.
     
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  7. jusnic
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    jusnic Blue Snail

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    Before joining ML, I had no idea HP washing was a thing, even though I poured a lot of time into pre-BB GMS. I don’t have any statistics, but I would wager there are many who opened up ML oblivious like me.

    You will hear about washing pretty quickly after starting ML, maybe during a PQ,and it hits pretty hard. I can see how newbies lose all motivation as the reality settles in.

    That said, I managed to get by with just an NL and zero leech. I only started adding base INT at lv65, and I finished MP washing at lv133. So I finally get to play INT free once again and will still have ~14k HP by the time I can run HT/NT.

    The weakened damage due to INT was a bit annoying, but having 200pts stuffed in INT when you are lv100+ is still very playable.
     
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  8. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    This would be a fair sentiment if these same players weren't at least partially to blame for the rampant misinformation related to what extent of washing is necessary (e.g. 'more experienced players' telling newer players to remake their sin because it's not 400 int)
     
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  9. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    It is possible to HP wash without leeching and funds just grinding it out, but it’s a painful path that really doesn’t get better for a long time. I am currently raising up a new sair with funding and I can say it is not for the faint of heart. If every new player tried to HP wash to PB level with no funding they would almost certainly give up hp washing, give up the game, or mess up their washing and have to start over again.

    Saying “it’s possible” doesn’t really mean much for the average new player. It’s also “possible” to reach level 200 or get a +7 perfect endgame weapon, but some people can play for years without reaching those feats. It’s possible, but is it really the way you should be playing the game? No honestly, you shouldn’t.

    I don’t even think it’s necessary for this post to provide a solution, because there’s already been 1 million suggestions to solve this issue and among those are several that are very well thought-out. All this post needs to be is another call to action to the MapleLegends staff, hopefully one that is taken seriously this time. This should be the top priority, more than anything else in the game at this moment.
     
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  10. skittrix
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    skittrix Blue Snail

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    It's like weird mixed priorities. We vote for nx cash, the voting is so new players can be brought in, but the ultimate effect and driver of voting for nx cash is to fuel a system that alienates the same players. All the while, we keep that system in place because it would be "disrespectful?" of the older players who already jumped through the hoops. Did they have so much love for the system that they're angry it's gone? What do the older vets even want, wouldn't more new players who don't quit be good for them? Wouldn't having a larger pool of people to join them in activities and catch up be good for them? If not, why even put out the vote/twitter/etc?

    I've always found it strange when old guard types, insist that things should stay to not cheapen their accomplishments. Like they're already benefiting from the effort, they have the character and are enjoying the content for that character. Basically, they're just saying that they should get to do that content, and no one else should. Like imagine if you could only buy witcher 3 if your witcher 2 100% completion was 4 years old, and could only get witcher 2 if your witcher 1 achieve was more than 6 years old. I bet the franchise popularity and community would be way way smaller.

    HP washing, or specifically saving NX and pumping int, is one of those things where I can't see the actual merit in it:
    -Is it making the game more fun? Do the characters play better? No.
    -Does it help bring in more players? Nope.
    -Is it an exciting thing to look forward to? Nope.
    -Is it obvious or easy or intuitive? Not really, you gotta plan for it, constants need to be lookup up, math done, planning made.
    -Is it in the spirit of the game? I'd argue that it's more like normalizing the abuse of a glitch that the devs kept in b/c it made them more money.
    -Is it honestly better game design? Oh god I hope not. Just let us buy max hp tickets that work to a point.
    -Does it stimulate the economy, or help with shortages, esp considering the possibly warped econ from a smaller playerbase? Not really, it makes int gear expensive, and slows down the availability of end game things, as each of the endgame players needs 6-10months of buy-in time.

    -Is it more accurate to the old game? Not really, at least not at this level of focus, optimization, and muling. The way people play the majority of this game is very different than how things used to be. I sure as hell don't remember old MS being so focused on multi clienting. Pretty sure you had to have multiple pc's / vm's. Also, the spectre of hp washing wasn't looming over literally everyone's heads. Pretty sure bishops weren't this popular, and DK's weren't only for muling. Also pretty sure that the most memorable things in MS back in the day was fighting over grindspots and PQ's, not multimage farming memes or perfect gear/perfect char faffing. Look, you can't recreate the playerbase of the old days, and that was a lot of the charm, but warping even more means that you can't even use ML as a way to try to return to those simpler times. In it's current state, ML isn't old school maple, it's old maple populated almost entirely by sweaty optimizers who will brigade you for not being so 1337. Way I see it, it's not about trying to recapture old MS at this point, more a way to have another oppurtunity to join that elite group that was missed out at the cost of everything else or for some, to rejoin those glory days before things changed and they could no longer lord over everyone else how much more exclusive things they got to do.

    As everyone else has said, there are plenty of solutions and reasons that don't have to be imbalancing, and it's clear that the staff clear. To view it as anything but a burden on the collective psyche of the server is disingenuous. Unless you're trying to maintain your own epeen through exclusivity, and if that's the case, then we should make hp washing HARDER, and max HP harder to get, maybe just nerf overall hp pools to guarentee instagibs by wild mobs above lvl 100 for the unwashed. That way, the old vets, can have new ways to lord over each other, their new 30k hp characters will be so so much more impressive than the existing ones from when "washing was so much easier back before the true hardcore upgrade". Oh and reduce int scroll drops by 10x, and requrie PQs to have 10x more runs for gear, b/c everyone (aka scrubs), will need a bishop mule to carry their new 400 int warriors so we should make those harder to level and gear.
     
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The argument that old players are trying to preserve the HP washing system to preserve their accomplishments is outdated, and new players that think this is the reason why things aren't getting implemented are just out of touch with the larger reality of the state of the server. There are a lot of class balancing issues currently, and giving everyone immediate access to every class with no content limitation (HP thresholds) is a really bad idea.

    In a perfect server where classes are all actually balanced in different ways (damage, role, specializations), perhaps HP washing would be less of a deal to remove. However, we're not even close to that stage yet, and there needs to be some way to restrict people from farming a bunch of Night Lords to use to farm end-game content. Right now, the only restriction we have is the time-gate of NX farming to HP wash, which is a basically the only requirement for any player to grow an end-game NL. If we developed other ways to restrict the mass migration of players towards NL or balanced out the classes, there'd be a stronger case to remove HP washing or to implement ways to make it less a pain in the ass.
     
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  12. skittrix
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    skittrix Blue Snail

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    Ah yes I see, in order to keep too many people from playing night lords, we're going to prevent people from playing at all for 6 months. Instead, this bishop leech meta in literally everything else is working as intended and a better outcome. Seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Besides, what's the point of talking game balance in a retro server specifically with the mission statement of recreating the old game? If the problem as you put it, is that actually, those classes become imba when washed, then the solution should be to remove washing instead, no?
     
  13. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    If I could have it my way, i would rework the hp gain per level so that at lv200 ranged chars have no more than 10k and warriors 20k. Unfortunately there are client restrictions to this prolly.
     
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    No? You can play the game through other classes. I mentioned in my post above that this game should be seen as tiered by access over time. You can play a mages, warriors, and shadowers right off the bat and do most content without having to worry too much about washing.

    Kimmy already mentioned this in the EOY thread. Removing washing entirely would be akin to resetting the server. This has other implications. Do you cater to the needs of 1000+ players that are currently playing the game, or do you cater the needs to a few vocal players that haven't shown much commitment to this server yet and will most likely quit the game before reaching end-game anyways?

    There have been great suggestions in the past like Sku's MP gain via daily quest thing, but that thread got derailed by the vocal noobs (many of whom are inactive by now) asking for the quest itself to be pushed earlier and earlier - from 4th job to 3rd job, which was what caused me to oppose the idea entirely.
     
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  15. ctjh1996
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    ctjh1996 Slime

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    You seem to have got the point in your first sentence, then it went all downhill from there

    no there is so much more ways to play - tons of HP washing threads have shown how light washing, while not compromising much damage - is still a viable option and able to survive all end game bosses

    no! Don’t you see the point we have been trying to explain to you? Wovv has so eloquently put it in the last paragraph and yet you turn a blind eye. I’ll put it in a shorter summary for you - what you are suggesting, just tilts everything in favour of high damaged range since high HP is easy to achieve. This makes cleave classes less viable since they get easily outclassed in DPM in end game! The time-gating is a fair compromise to those who do not want to go through that process, yet still be viable in end game bosses

    Please do consider some of the pointers properly, thanks
     
  16. skittrix
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    skittrix Blue Snail

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    Please do excuse my sarcasm, years on the internet has taught me the very valuable lesson that a newcomer in a geek culture needs to have a couple of extra barbs attached to avoid being ignored, demeaned, or outright misrepresented as a fool with no reading comprehension by the pre-established olde gaurde.

    I understand the point about classes that put out good dps potentially obsoleting the competition, especially going long term. However, it seems I'll need to put the point I so eloquently made into a short summary for you. HP washing, as a mechanic, like the OP said, is a anti-noob friendly mechanic, not because of the time investment, but because the explanation about how to do is convoluted and discouraging, and that worrying about int on an archer/thief/pirate and suffer sucky damage is unfun. That a legitimate problem can be dismissed as advocating for total anarchy instead of raising the desire for tweaks is in itself a problem that discourages new players.

    Here's the thing, that time-gating is not a fair compromise for all the people who have quit and all the people who have joined since, aka us new players. Since a compromise can only be given by those with a say. This thread like many others, is a simple heartfelt good faith response of, "I like this game, how you've run it, and the community, but this part sucks, can we amend the compromise?". It does not say to throw things out without a replacement, and bringing out the boogeymen of all nightlord meta is just a strawman (heh heh target dummy). By the way, your compromise isn't even real if
    , is to be believed. Not to mention the direct disagreement here:
    if
    is true, then why is the meta not night lord? unless your definition of "light washing" is months of gameplay and people just realized that a couple of months ago, then we should all be awaiting a change to reinforce the compromise. Seems like you're telling me that washing isn't a burden that compromises damage, since dpm > cleave, and washing needs to be specificallly extra onerous to discourage people from rerolling night lord (as if grinding 160 levels isn't bad enough).

    Not to mention:
    vs
    both in support of keeping washing as it is? Maybe I did miss the point. Let's not forget all the other topics acknowledging the mage meta, btw the difference between memes lampooning the truth and being a false joke is pretty hard to tell for a new player.

    I liked the mp gain thing too, it addressed many of the issues I have. I think the hostile nature towards noobs is a problem however. Afterall, do you cater to the 500+ players who have been around for 5+ years (the numbers are made up), or the 500+ that will go inactive in a month b/c of things like hp washing, hostile gatekeepers, finding out you should level a mage first, etc. Or do you cater to the thousands of players who have already quit because of those issues, or those that might or already have quit because there's no new people and just a stagnant aging community where all they can do is sit and watch as their friends go inactive one by one over the years? It's not like old players who have quit can't come back, I quit this back in 2017 around when I started reading into hp washing, it just seemed like too much a hassle for playing mushroom game, knowing it was a thing, and that I was being so damn suboptimal left a bad taste in my mouth, but that's my problem.

    But here's the thing, people enter and exit communities and games all the time. Alienating or disregarding a group of people just because they aren't regulars is not a good way to build or grow a community. It's a freaking game, and it's a game where too many hours are played by people who want to like it but quit. I assume the devs read the entire thread, and want to consider all the points, just because a "group of noobs" suggested something or derailed the thread doesn't mean that the devs will just take it and deploy as it is like a jenkins job. If you had solid concerns, maybe they woulda just implemented it as 4th job because of those concerns and ignored the less informed. That's why you try to make your point right? The feedback matters, not who has the final say in the thread, nor who has the final say?




    All in all, I for one don't understand why we can't just remove the hp/mp buttons from ap reset, and replace all the ap reset rewards with an item that gives a clean wash worth of hp or mp profit that costs 3100 nx. SO what if it lets people hit 30k/30k, it would still take like 3 years of voting or something, and you can just pretend like they kept that character on the side voting for that, time gate still there, the character just isn't suck to play for what's probably the bulk of the play experience for most players anyways. Is extra mana really that useful, or not having to run a hyper body mule? Or if the problem is the existence of high HP sins in the first place, maybe just remove washing and buff hp scrolls and not reset characters. Make it such that thief/archer needs to scroll for hp a couple of times "for the sake of balance". Announce it months in advance to allow for any already accumulated nx/leveling projects to be completed, and grandfather in existing characters as a bonus for the people who did it. I dunno, I bet others have recommended plenty of ideas. I'm not trying to offer another solution, but to address the conversation into hopefully a more constructive set of arguements. Not that is reply is constructive.
     
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  17. HarleyEllis
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    HarleyEllis Pac Pinky

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    Int giving non mages extra maxMP on level and from fresh AP is a bug. Once suffucient replacement sources of HP can be implemented, ones that are play to win, give plenty of notice that the bug is getting fixed and just shut washing off. People are going to be angry but ultimately ML will stay the most desirable server to play, like it's been for years.
     
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  18. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    The elephant in the room is undodgeable boss attacks. So many bosses can just 1 shot without retaliation. Even mages can get 1 shot if they get unlucky and get MG cancelled at the same time they take damage. In any other game this would be treated as a bug.

    I think that it's a better solution to rework hitboxes on some of these attacks to make it so ranged characters can dodge them. Additionally the bosses should have I-frames or magic/weapon cancel during those animations so that dodging attacks doesn't lead to a DPS loss.

    It would be hard to implement but seems like a better solution than debating washing nonstop.
     
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  19. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    The problem to hp wash get much easy is a class disbalance..
    back in days was need to do a choice:

    1) ranged with dpm/avoid
    2) melee with hp and acc/mobility problem
    3) mages with ultimate

    when you change this choice you get a strong char.

    so, it get much easy to get hp, is no reason to make melee at all (as you read it, you read other job will be not taken in boss, since nls and bm don't need other class buff when they togheter)

    the possible solution to make it easy without desbalance:

    the first thing i thinked is job adv. gives a bit of hp and mp, i don't see any problem to implement this, kimmy disliked ( but i gave my 2 cents to help community i knew the hp wash mechanic since 2008 and don't have problem with this)

    other thing i see is nice was a quest ring, i dont remmember the post writer, but a ring that get strong by quest and divided by job (it can give acc for melee, hp for ranged, maybe magic for mages?)

    another thing that can be nice is a hp quest, with hp capeable (for example: ranged can only get 1-2k hp for this quest, or something like ranged can't pass 10k hp with this quest)

    others potential solution:
    pet equip with more slots?

    wedding rings got a buff of def/hp/have 100%? scrolls?

    Implement chaos zak/ht or like normal zak/ht but with more hp (and timmer or no xD) that give same stats but some extra hp (200ish each for a stronger version of this boss it will help to get more cleave content too)
     
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  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Just for the record, if this suggestion was implemented, I'd be able to create 8 20k+ NLs just off of the excess NX I currently have on my mages/warrior accounts who completed washing last year. And I'm not the only one in this position. And I'd be able to zoom past 1st and 2nd job just grinding at full damage then transitioning to self-leech five of them at once from 75-120+. Once I get to 135+, I'd be joining bossing content daily and whiting most other classes in my level by far (thus gaining significantly more exp than my party members). Hell, if I had 5 lvl 140+ NLs, I could probably solo Zak daily fairly easily.

    A lot of HP washing 'solutions' get suggested here, but the consequences of implementing them are usually never fully thought out.

    At the moment, older players actually see HP washing and leeching to make a tanky NL too easy, and it's showing in class trends/bossing compositions. Most of us are not opposed to making changes to HP washing, but making it flat out easier is not the right way to go about it.
     
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