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A Discussion on HP Washing & Game Design

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pelinsu, Jan 30, 2022.

  1. Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    5:23 PM
    Hello;

    As a returning player to MS scene, I can say that I've learned a lot of details then I did back then, and one of the main subjects I've learnerd is HP washing.

    I do see this as a bad game design from the player perspective while understanding that it's part of the game for some other players.

    There are 2 main concepts i'm uncomfortable with:
    1) At higher levels, each character should have an equal standing on every participation.

    This bothers me because some classes need washing in order to not die and participate in certain bosses. We clearly don't see this happening in other games with heavy raids, such as GW2, WoW and others. (They have tank/healer and targeted combat functions, but from design perspective it's fair.)

    This is a bad game design. Why? Because class choices shouldn't exclude players from participating in any element of the game. Warriors can participate in HT PB and other bosses easily while other classes (such as archers etc.) have to depend on their washing. If I'm not going to be able to participate at the bosses, what other choice do I have other than HP wash? This also creates a gloomy atmoshpere for new players, since they have to take the whole washing process into account, and let's be fair: it's a "hard to master" thing.

    2) HP Washing is not beginner-friendly.

    Let's make this clear, we're not playing a hardcore strategy game here. I see new players left and right asking questions about washing processes (including me). If we want to increase our playerbase and create a fair environment, we need to address this issue.

    So here are my 2 cents as some possible solutions:

    1- Create an IG NPC for players to set their HP/MP values ONCE per character.

    This is going to work like this:
    You are required to be at a certain level (or whatever level we decide to be best fit for this.)
    You are required the amount of NX cash in order to set the values.

    After getting these requirement for washing, you are allowed to change the "theoritical" excess MP value you would have in that level into HP.

    There are calculators out there and if we implement this, we can create a calculator for this along with a brief introduction to the system for newer players.

    2- Make boss damage hit as %.

    This is just an idea of course but we can set the HP treshold damages as percentage damage. So every player would have an equal ground.
    I know this solution needs to be discussed deeply, as it may create another form of unfairness between classes, but i'm not 100% sure.


    I opened this thread on general discussion because I want to further discuss these points. These are not 100% exact solutions, so every idea regarding this is quite valuable.

    Thank you all in advance. <3

    Edit:
    I have been directed to this thread: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/making-hp-washing-truly-optional-a-solution.39773/

    I do believe the daily quest solution might be a great one but It disregards the voting process.
    In order to keep it, we can also include an amount of NX to complete the quest, therefore we can make HP washing into something more accessible at higher levels while keeping the voting process intact without any drawbacks.

    What are your opinions?
     
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  2. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    ranged damage classes getting higher hp than melee tank classes is most silly concept in this game
    and next to this is axes and BWs being so weak compared to swords
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
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  3. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    3:23 PM
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    [​IMG]
     
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  4. MrmrMrmrDude
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    MrmrMrmrDude Mano

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    4:23 PM
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    what does penislu mean
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Clearly an anagram for Lupines
     
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  6. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    My thought is its not much of the annoyance of its process, its more aggravating to wait and vote.
     
  7. OP
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    Pelinsu
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    Pelinsu Timer

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    5:23 PM
    Isn't that the current situation anyway? People have to wait and vote for HP wash anyway. This just becomes another solution for people who either passed their levels to HP wash and people who just started without prior knowledge.
     
  8. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

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    v62 Maple is not a modern RPG with modern thinking. Modern MS has this kind of design where every class can do everything and by design everything is equally good. It's a harmful way of designing RPGs but it removes any weakness in-game and makes it so everybody is happy. I don't like HP washing but I don't think the goal of changes should be making it so every class goes into bosses "on equal footing." Therefore I'm against taking ideas from modern GW2, WoW, MS, etc. or making bosses do % damage.
     
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  9. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    This past event made it a bit easier to deal with it tbh, recently there was a x2 vote event along with 500, 750 nx coupons dropping from monsters. I do hope that they continue dropping 500, 750 coupons even after the event.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Seiras
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    Seiras Horny Mushroom

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    9:23 AM
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    If the damage is unavoidable and you're max level, that damage should not be able to 1hit-KO you. It's insane that you're required to exploit a bug to raise your HP in order to tank the damage.

    I feel like a decent solution would be to eliminate the possibility of getting OHKO'd. Example concept:
    Level 170 - Cannot get OHKO'd if your HP is above 100.000%
    Level 171 - Cannot get OHKO'd if your HP is above 99.167%
    Level 172 - Cannot get OHKO'd if your HP is above 98.333%
    ...
    Level 198 - Cannot get OHKO'd if your HP is above 76.667%
    Level 199 - Cannot get OHKO'd if your HP is above 75.833%
    Level 200 - Cannot get OHKO'd if your HP is above 75.000%

    If you're above the No-OHKO threshold and you take damage that would kill you, you should survive with 1 HP (which gives you time to spam potions).

    With a concept like that, HP washing becomes truly optional. People that washed still retain their extra survivability buffer, and people that don't wash can still do everything in the game. It'll still be a pain to have to spam pots, but then it's about user skill and watching your HP... rather than being about whether or not you loaded yourself up with INT 2 years ago and religiously voted for AP Resets.

    Of course, a possible downside to this system is that some things are supposed to 1-hit you (like the totems on your way to Crimsonwood Keep). As such, the No-OHKO feature should only be active in boss maps or active based on the mob that dealt the damage.

    A cool aspect of this solution is that it's totally reversible and can be trial-ran on the live server.
     
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  11. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    solution would be to make ranged hp cap lower.
    in reality hp washing nullifies an advantage warriors and all melee classes should have over ranged
     
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  12. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    7:23 AM
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    the percentage damage sounds like it's been proposed already:

    DEF is a stat that's not often used, since it's formulas are horrible atm.

    i forget where i read it from... but could've been a suggestion thread to improve the DEF to allow people to be okay with less HP when they use more DEF in their equips.

    most of the time, fixes and improvements for QOL are difficult to implement, especially when everyone that's working behind the scenes are non-paid volunteers.
    • the staff works really hard! :heartbeat:
     
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  13. Shengo
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    Shengo Slime

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    10:23 PM
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    This actually sounds good to me, no min. HP requirement and every class has to be as alert instead of just pressing one key (works like the CWKPQ stage). However need to consider on setting a min. req to enter boss expedition to avoid mule exploit :woot:
     
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  14. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I did want to comment on the %HP attacks, these work well in GMS because of pot delay: you can't just spam pots.

    In v62 (with pots having no cooldown) %HP attacks would just make the game braindead easy.
     
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  15. WohnJick
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    WohnJick Mano

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    1:23 AM
    WohnJick
    Damage as % sounds good until you main a Drk.
    • Maximum HP : 30k
    • Min HP to activate berserk :16.5k
    • Say for eg boss damage is 50% of max HP :15k damage received
    • HP after taking 1 hit if you are a god at zerking and can maintain HP at 16~16.5k: 1~1.5k
    Needless to say, most Drks struggle to stay at 16k HP 100% of the time, spamming 3 different types of pots Drks usually stay around 14~15k (pls correct me if I’m wrong, this is just my own personal experience and what I’ve observed with other Drks I know). This would mean the % base HP damage mechanic would severely cripple Drks.

    While it is a great suggestion, since we’re on the topic of fairness for all classes I think I’ve pointed out one class that might not benefit from this change.
     
  16. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    11:23 AM
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    I Will copy and past my 2 cents for other topic:

    The problem to hp wash get much easy is a class disbalance..
    back in days was need to do a choice:

    1) ranged with dpm/avoid
    2) melee with hp and acc/mobility problem
    3) mages with ultimate

    when you change this choice you get a strong char.

    so, it get much easy to get hp, is no reason to make melee at all (as you read it, you read other job will be not taken in boss, since nls and bm don't need other class buff when they togheter)

    the possible solution to make it easy without desbalance:

    the first thing i thinked is job adv. gives a bit of hp and mp, i don't see any problem to implement this, kimmy disliked ( but i gave my 2 cents to help community i knew the hp wash mechanic since 2008 and don't have problem with this)

    other thing i see is nice was a quest ring, i dont remmember the post writer, but a ring that get strong by quest and divided by job (it can give acc for melee, hp for ranged, maybe magic for mages?)

    another thing that can be nice is a hp quest, with hp capeable (for example: ranged can only get 1-2k hp for this quest, or something like ranged can't pass 10k hp with this quest)

    others potential solution:
    pet equip with more slots?

    wedding rings got a buff of def/hp/have 100%? scrolls?

    Implement chaos zak/ht or like normal zak/ht but with more hp (and timmer or no xD) that give same stats but some extra hp (200ish each for a stronger version of this boss it will help to get more cleave content too)
     
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  17. anotherone
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    anotherone Blue Snail

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    I’am what you could call a new player, I’ve been here for like a month.
    I don’t pretend having a solution but I wanna tell you my experience and thoughts on the server as a fresh player.
    I will start by saying that I really love this server and that I plan on sticking to it for a long time.
    So i was happy to be able to experience the old game I loved, I started by making a sin, at lvl 21 I went to KPQ, made friends enjoyed it a lot but that’s where I discovered hp washing, people told me that I should wash or basically I won’t be able to do alot of content endgame. Big bummer but there’s alot of classes I want to play so i’ll do something else, made a bish for money, made a dk since they are « easy to wash » understood that I won’t do damages until I washed enough= need to wait to play that char. Made a bucc without washing so I could do early game bosses.
    So basically I made a bucc while I wait to play on my dk while I wait to play on my night lord.
    I’m sorry but if I wanna play a char I shouldn’t have to wait a year or 6 months, I made alot of friends amongst new player like me, we almost all play mages or hero for the bravest…
    I don’t think this is healthy for the future of the server which I really like, is being able to tank everything as a ranged dps a good thing? I don’t believe that, we all hate washing new players and old players and I don’t understand why it is still a thing. I know there’s probably alot of reasons but I don’t see which one justify loosing new players because alot of the players I started with aren’t there anymore…
    I don’t even talk about hard washers in pq that are useless, people leeching from 10-150 etc etc
     
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  18. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    The thing about dk's(or almost every class) is that unless you're pumping iron and hard grinding daily, you likely won't outpace your vote cash. You can't expect to be on the same level as everyone else right from the start.

    You also can't take the words of PQers and many of the forumgoers too seriously. Myself included. We often talk in hyperbole. PQers tend to be extreme and jaded, I honestly couldn't tell you why. Some of the forum regulars here like to troll a little and make jokes about how you need six accounts just to be able to play your one NL damage dealer.

    None of it is true.

    When I started my DK last year, before taking a break, I spent a lot of my time thinking of ways to balance my damage with my hp wash. I wanted to hit 30k(18.75k), not because it was a thing I HAD to do, but because I thought it'd be fun. You don't need 200 int, you can get by with just 40, maybe mp wash into int to get a little more.

    Atm I'm 80 with 10k health, and my damage isn't affected much, if at all. I didn't spend that year off voting, I only started voting again back in January. As long as you're not needlessly spending cash on things you'll just stop using in a week, you'll build a steady flow. You don't need to apr immediately either, you can wait it out until you have the funds.

    Just enjoy the game and learn as you go, don't try and metagame right off the bat, you'll only treat it like a chore list rather than a fun experience. Go do quests, unlock some cool skills, farm KPQ for some extra cash, relive some of your favorite moments and then go make some new ones too.
     
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  19. anotherone
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    anotherone Blue Snail

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    Yeah i see what you mean maybe i'm taking that a bit too seriously, but the truth is i dont wanna spend 6 months into a char and then realize '' i can't do this or that because i haven't washed or washed enough'' and have to make another char. The thing is honestly i might consider 30k hp ok for a warrior, but why would a NL have 30k hp, have insane ranged dps and avoidability and mobility on top of that? I really don't understand that part, ofc i'll enjoy the game playing my bucc unwashed but i'll have to quit this char once i reach high lvl :/
     
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  20. Mageor
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    Mageor Mr. Anchor

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    Your concerns are justified. But personally, I feel you might be thinking too far ahead as are most people. I may be wrong though. From my personal experience, I’ve been playing this game for 18 months now, pretty actively I’d say, but I never thought I would be hp gated by not having 30k hp, except for my dark knight lol.

    most bosses I run tend to hit no more than 10k hp, HT included. In reality, the only bosses you will have trouble with are pink bean, toad. Both of which are only really accessible after level 175/180.

    Not sure if it helped you, but hope you have fun on your journey!
     
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