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Increase Horizontal Range of Assassinate or Reduce Dash Distance

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Gurk, Mar 14, 2022.

  1. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    6:22 PM
    Gxrk
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    I created a somewhat similar thread a little over a year ago regarding increasing the frontal range of assassinate (here) and the TL;DR from that is that the pitiful T. Rex arms range of assassinate can be needlessly frustrating at both HT and PB. Even after the expanded hitbox of Ariel, it is almost impossible to tell if one is successfully reaching or not, especially if there is another shad in the run, without tapping right over and over until one usually falls or is knocked back just to have to begin the process over again.

    However, I want to discuss a different, or additional angle here this time and suggest also either increasing the posterior range, i.e. expand the hitbox of assassinate to cover slightly more area from behind, and/or reduce the distance traveled with the dash hit. The primary purpose of this proposal is to further the relevance of the nate dash attack, i.e. the 5th hit, and enable shads to nate back and forth at more bosses, which makes for more dynamic gameplay than simply letting nate go brrrr. The nate dashing I'm referring to can be seen below:
    ezgif.com-gif-maker (1).gif

    As many are likely aware, SE only affects the dash hit of nate for whatever reason. With SE, this nate dashing approach results in about 10% higher DPM than simply standing in place. However, given the nicheness of this 5th hit, shad single target damage can generally be considered to be unaffected by SE (#MakeSEAffectNate).

    At present, this strategy can only be employed at wide bosses, i.e. zak, berga, nib, 2nd body toad and pianus, and partially at targa because of the rushing attack it makes use of. If the rear hitbox of nate were extended even a little or if the nate dash traversed slightly less distance, I imagine that this tactic could additionally be used at bosses such as PB statues, PB body, HT legs, nameless, scar, targa, and ravana. The increased damage from this would likely put shads on par with heroes and DKs at the above bosses, which I believe is a justifiable change given the current predicament of shad.
     
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  2. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    It would sure be nice if we could move away from simply spamming assassinate without the dash being the best single target option for many situations as it's just boring and not in the ''spirit'' of the job at all imo. I really liked your suggestion on the ''musings'' thread you posted about moving back to the assassinate+boomerang step single target meta though assassinate+dash would also be great and probably makes more sense.

    I don't think shortening the dash range is the way to go as it will make the dash less useful for repositioning and will make your dash attack not connect more often when you get hit during your assassinate and try to connect the dash but the boss is now out of range (it already can happen but would become more common with a shorter dash). Plus it would be harder to keep up with the few mobile bosses.

    Increasing the hitbox size would work but I don't really understand why you would want it to be behind you instead of in front. If you were to increase the range in front of you (slightly as suggested before) you'll be able to nate+dash at the bosses you mentioned as you now have enough room to perform the current dash from the position you used assassinate and changing direction right after a dash works very well in case you get out of position for some reason. Not only that but we would finally be able to hit most of the targets every other job can hit already.
     
  3. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    10:22 PM
    Lisnar, HolyFlow, Theorist
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    I have so many not original ideas,i'll bring then and let me know if its helpful:
    1º Buff B.step damage so they can combo it with assassinate even on solo targets, making his niche doing good single target while a little bit of colateral damage.



    2º Remove assassinate 5th hit dash, making the 5 hit bring you back to where u started the assassinate cast, so u can keep using it for repositionating when you fall down of plats on any boss. (i can bring a video showing it if anyone wants).

    2.5- (It's insanely smoother perfoming a b.step after the last assassinate hit (without dash), i can bring a video showing if anyone wants)


    3º Make the 4 first hits able to crit and the last one always crit.



    Original idea (i don't think this is going to pass, but i think it would be fun xD:
    4º Make pickpocket drop money where the shadower is, not on the boss feet.

    Interesting changes on my view ( based on the previous idea )
    Remove charge mechanic, little compensation on assassinate base damage.
    Make ME hits on cancel ( idk if already hits tbh)
    Increase mesos drop and make pickpocket unlootable

    And of course re-balance the class to not become op with this changes, i really think shad prebbb need a mini-rework, not buffs, since vanilla shad is kinda clunky and its not even nostalgic since nate was so fking trash, back in the days high level shadowers didnt even use it.
     
  4. HarleyEllis
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    HarleyEllis Pac Pinky

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    Harlez
    I/L Wizard, Shadower, Brawler, Outlaw
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    Horiz. Range: Consensus seems to have been reached on the necessity of marginally increasing forward reach, so I'll make no further comment on that aspect. If I were using Nate irl, its hitbox would absolutely extend nearly an arm's length behind me, albeit less than in front because of the assumed fixed forward grip on the dagger. (ignore my left-handed profile picture's khanjar f3) I can personally attest to very frequently missing an about face when doing constant Nate macros back and forth and completely wiffing because I've landed with the target narrowly behind my midpoint. My understanding is that this would also be quite straightforward to implement.

    Dash Distance: I believe Nate's dash was intentionally programmed to closely match the knockback distance and, as Soblet stated, a reduction would harm repositioning and likelyhood of landing the 5th strike.
     
  5. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    you can make this last hit bring back you for the place you've started the casting if you get distance from it, he's going to keep his mechanic while helping low washed shadowers, and being more consistent, like this:
    why is so hard put a gif on a post lol i'm a boomer
     
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  6. HarleyEllis
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    HarleyEllis Pac Pinky

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    Harlez
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    Whatever's happening in that gif I both want for its clear benefits and fear for the sake of our job identity. The need for washing mitigations is a constant spectre.
     
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  7. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Still able to use the dash but no more accidental body slams sending the lesser washed shadowers to their doom. Looks great.
     
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  8. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Yeah, I'd still very much like for nate + bstep to be optimal single target dpm as it allows shads to more fully embrace their identity of being untouchable while also buffing their cleave damage at the same time (and is just more pleasant visually than stale nating), though nate dashing all day would probably be more fun.

    My thinking was that if the frontal range of nate were also extended a bit, it would make up for the reduced dash distance with respect to repositioning and also allow for the possibility of using the nate dash twice in a row to get back into position, which allows for marginally higher dpm.

    Increasing only the range in front wouldn't allow one to use nate again in succession after the dash for smaller bosses. If you started right in front of the boss to the left, you'd end up a bit too far behind them to nate back left again. If you started a bit further away from the boss (with the increased frontal range) you'd end up on the boss, and while that would allow for a successive nate back to the left it would stop there as you'd be back where you started but facing away from the boss.
     
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  9. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Bump because I still think that increasing the amount of places where "nate dancing" is viable via increasing back hit range is a move in a positive direction for the class as it makes the class less stale and more engaging and dynamic.

    Nate's current back hit range, or lack thereof:
    ezgif.com-gif-maker (4).gif

    DS and barrage for reference to show that this wouldn't be a "weird" or clunky change:
    DS.gif
    barrage.gif
     
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  10. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Feels like barrage range should be reduced instead. Why is the punch landing backwards
     
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  11. CreamPuffDad
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    CreamPuffDad Timer

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    It's mimicking real life. When you pull your arm back to punch, you basically elbow whoever's behind you, F3.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1

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