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Shads and Bombing in PB

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Gurk, Apr 12, 2022.

  1. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I was originally just going to post this as a reply to a comment I saw but seeing as I see this point being mentioned and perpetuated by many people, the idea that shads can be an asset in that they can singlehandedly salvage a PB run in an emergency if needed via meso explosion, I thought I'd dedicate a thread to it for better visibility. Not only do I think this point is very much overstated as a pro for shads, I think it's actually pretty much a myth and I thought I'd squash it once and for all since I'm rather tired of seeing people sometimes use it as a reason for why shads are in an okay spot. So let's break this down a bit:

    The formula for meso explosion (abbreviated as ME henceforth) is as follows:

    If less than or equal to 1000 mesos:

    MIN: (50 * 1000 [Skill->XValue]) * 0.5 * ((Mesos * 0.82 + 28.0) / 5300)

    MAX: (50 * 1000 [Skill->XValue]) * ((Mesos * 0.82 + 28.0) / 5300)

    Otherwise:

    MIN: (50 * 1000 [Skill->XValue]) * 0.5 * (Mesos / (Mesos + 5250))

    MAX: (50 * 1000 [Skill->XValue]) * (Mesos / (Mesos + 5250))

    This means 200 mesos would on average do (50 * 1000) * 0.75 * ((200 * 0.82 + 28) / 5300)) => 50000 * 0.75 * (192 / 5300) => 1358.5 damage.

    ME takes 750 ms to cast and when used consecutively, each ME ends up consuming about 10-12 stacks of mesos (because of some behind-the-scenes workings that I can't be arsed to explain here right now). And with some extensive testing, I've found that bombing stacks of 200 mesos yields a dpm of about 1.5m.

    If we apply the above formulas again to an amount of 10,000 mesos, we'll see that it does on average (50 * 1000) * 0.75 * (10000 / 10000 + 5250) => 50000 * 0.75 * (10000 / 15250) => 24,590.2 damage. In other words, dropping 50x more mesos gives us only 18.1x more damage. And if we do the same again for 20,000 mesos, we'll see that it'll do on average 29.7k damage, i.e. 1.2x more damage for doubling the previous amount of mesos. Obviously this is very quickly diminishing returns.

    As a 20k bag does damage equal to about 21.86 times that of a 200 meso bag, we can extrapolate from our previous 1.5m dpm figure that bombing 20k bags would yield a dpm of about 32.8m. That sounds amazing, but let's break it down further.

    A single DR lasts 20 seconds. The average person has a CPS (clicks per second) of about 7, meaning they will drop about 70 bags during a DR if uninterrupted. Now, realistically they are not going to start dropping as soon as DR begins but rather at least 2 seconds afterward because they don't have an inhuman reaction speed, and they will likely get hit at least once during the dropping and have to reposition, which will cost them about another 2 seconds. Therefore let us say that they will more realistically have about 16 seconds of interrupted dropping, which will yield about 56 bags (which is 1.12m mesos with 20k bags).

    56 bags is enough to fuel about 5 MEs under ideal conditions where the shad is entirely uninterrupted while using ME consecutively. Casting 5 MEs will take about 3.75 seconds (5 * 750 ms). However, because it is pretty much impossible to determine whether or not one has already consumed all the mesos for ME (as the animation for the bombing and the lines will continue for several seconds afterward), a shad will realistically cast ME several more times than is necessary until the animation for the bombing actually ceases (which is made more confusing when there is more than one shad bombing), i.e. the whole bombing will probably take around 6 seconds.

    DR has a cooldown of 1 minute, which means that if DR goes off immediately whenever it is up, there are 40 seconds in between each DR. More realistically this will vary between 40 to 60 seconds so let us just say that on average there are 50 seconds in between DRs. 5 full MEs using 20k bags will yield about 2m damage. After the bombing, the shad will have about 40 seconds left to nate (factoring time for crossing over to right to start bombing and then crossing back left to resume nating). If we assume this is a solid shad with a PB body dpm of 3m, then with the time remaining they will do about another 3.36m damage before DR comes up again.

    This means every ~70 seconds (50 seconds of uptime + 20 seconds of DR) the shad will be dishing out about 5.36m damage (2m from bombing and 3.36m from nating), which yields an overall DPM of about 4.6m. In other words, bombing simply converts a shad into an average NL at the exorbitant cost of 1.12m per DR, which will happen every 50 seconds, i.e. bombing over 20 minutes with 20k bags will cost over 25m. That's right, for the fantastic price of 25m you too can convert a melee slot into an NL slot!

    So the ultimate question is will converting a shad into an NL salvage your scuffed run? Highly unlikely. Will converting several shads into NLs save your scuffed run? Maybe, but why do you have several shads in the first place? [​IMG]
     
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Sure, in the current meta it makes sense to just make an NL, but it doesn’t mean that Shad’s are entirely useless. This is the problem with theoretical versus reality - pushing the narrative that Shads are absolutely useless is not true, but people will continue to spread that as gospel.

    What is the truth? Most people who play end level shad started them without heavy planning, which is why we don’t see things like many 30k Shadowers. Sure other classes are better in the slot, but quite frankly, Shads can still have purpose, as so you’ve explained. HP washing and the like make NLs much harder to make pb eligible (which is why hp is necessary at least in this state of balance), and it’s pretty telling with todays meta shift. They’re not necessarily a liability like in current HT meta. They’re just a lackluster attacker (or more so a more average attacker) who should be able to not waste a ress the entire run (which is also a pretty important contribution regarding party resource management).

    Could meso explosion get a rework? Probably. The damage curves could be looked at. Maybe Shad’s could bomb other peoples’ mesos (or exclusively, NLs) in the pb map? Or ME within smoke could consume all dropped mesos? There are pretty cool possibilities. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Regardless, no other class has the ability to just shift their dpm up by an extra 66%, and I know for a fact people are recruiting some Shads over risky/shady NLs in their runs anyways.

    Have runs been saved by Shads bombing? Yep. Could it have been better planned for? Probably, but that’s uncertain depending on peoples availability. It’s hard to muster up 20-30 solid end level players.

    Though, with things like easy leech, that’s destined to change as well.
     
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  3. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    You already can boom other peoples mesos..
     
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This true? Then why aren’t more people with high avoid dropping mesos during dr as well . Or during smoke.
     
  5. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Because of OP lmaoo. It's usually just not worth it.
     
  6. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I didn't really intend for this post to push the narrative that shads are absolutely useless (just underwhelming and in need of some love) as much as I wanted to show how overrated bombing is and take some power away from the arguments of those who would use PB bombing as a justification for shads being fine as they are.

    As much as I'd prefer other changes that don't just serve to make manually dropping mesos more of a staple in their bossing kit, being able to bomb other players' mesos would be great and hilarious. Just imagine seeing a bunch of players huddled together and all dropping mesos for the lone shad to bomb.
     
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  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The premise of Gurk's argument is that the narrative that Shads can save scuffed runs is incorrect due to the DPM output being similar to an NL, DPM that is restricted by the speed in which an individual can drop mesos. Add more people to drop mesos during optimal times, and you've increased your DPM.

    Sure, more mesos are expensed, but if your back is against the wall, what is an extra 20-30m spent if you get to see the drops?
     
  8. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    You can bomb the mesos that drop from the kills of mobs by other players, but you can't bomb mesos that they manually drop.
     
  9. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Come FM ima show you
     
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Research:
    upload_2022-4-12_2-23-18.png
     
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  11. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    No, we're just as confused as before. Sometimes you can bomb someone else's mesos. povv can never bomb someone else's mesos.
     
  13. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I can't ever bomb anyone else's mesos either. :confused:
     
  14. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Yea there's some restrictions to it I guess. It always worked for me in the past but this time only for the mesos dropped from Dividends and not from Gurk. Time for more research..
     
  15. OP
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    Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    more_research.PNG

    The confusion continues.
     
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  16. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Looks like you guys figured it out ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is going to change the game.
     
  18. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    ENLIGHTEN US, SHADGODS
     
  19. asaniqq
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    asaniqq Mushmom

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    Where was the invite for Beasee pogpega
     
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  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Carpal tunnel for all, not just Shad’s and corsairs.
     
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