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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    MELOMELO dont bother with him bro, he is strictly here to disagree and deny any suggestion to buffing/improving Heroes. XatSad
     
  2. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I didn't disagree with OP.
    If you focus on single target buffs on heroes I'll surely be there :)
     
  3. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Aka remove mass sed from ht, allowing them to properly cleave there again. That and pb are the final reason they were phased out, and there’s plenty enough people not interested in pb.
    Also removing the mass sed would bring mages, attacker shads, DKs, etc back into ht. Would be nice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    I actually take someone's words as a kid joke. So i ok
     
  5. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    This thread turned into a shithow real quick
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    nerf bishops and night lords
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I don't turn them into personal attacks. But if they wanna do it I have no control over it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
  8. faithie
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    faithie King Slime

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    I think this suggestion is sound. A 20% damage buff to when brandishing a single target [i.e. 1 target = 120% x 260%; 2 targets = 110% x 260%; 3 targets = 260%] would still keep paladins as the stronger option for single target dpm while giving heroes a reasonable buff - wherein heroes are feasibly tolerable in single target dpm heavy bosses while still maintaining its niche in cleave dpm heavy bosses
     
  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    When these types of balancing questions get thrown around, I really do wonder what people think is an appropriate change.

    For those asking for Hero buffs, what do you think would be a good single-target dummy dpm? Please be specific.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I've asked a few times, a damage they would want in comparison to NLs. Either they gets ignored or they try to be sarcastic and totally dodge it
     
  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Why do you think Heroes deserve top tier single target damage when they are an entry level class? Even paladins don't have comparable single target damage to NLs. If Heroes did comparable damage to NLs, why would anybody make any other class? And be specific with numbers please. I'm curious to see what people think the top end dpm for Heroes is.
     
  12. faithie
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    faithie King Slime

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    as for a specific dpm test number i have no idea dan i dont have a hero f3 but theoretically this shouldnt outperform a pally so.....
     
  13. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I don't. I think Heroes are fine the way they are right now. But I'm asking them for a percentage of what they want from an NL in single target. 70%? 80%? Give a value. If NL is difficult to compare with, then compare it against paladins.
     
  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Just for comparison - my average geared level 200 bowmaster does ~10m single target dpm while my similarly geared level 176 Hero does 7m. Scaling up for the lost 24 levels of stats, I'm guessing this could go up slightly above 8m. With perfect gear, this could jump to 9-9.5m. Any level 200 Hero with perfect weapon care to test this out?

    For a class that is entry level, has built in dpm efficiency with stance, a shit ton of HP, and no required mechanical play like zerk, getting 9m+ single target dpm on a 3x cleave skill is huge. A 20% buff would put them at Paladin level while still maintaining the huge cleaving advantage. Another factor to consider is that Paladins have a dpm ceiling when using attack pots since their lines get capped at 199k. Heroes don't have to worry about this.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    bishop is shit. better off being fp.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    and is a hero main as well. ;)
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. abe27342
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    abe27342 Orange Mushroom

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    not a perfect weapon (132att) but 6315 ~ 11503 range, se/si/echo/mw20/enrage, first test 3 target second one 1 target (really it's better to just take longer 3 target and divide by 3 to reduce variance). 9m is probably right around perfect weapon level of gear, 9.5m might be possible if you've got 100b ;).

    edit: I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations, 100b definitely gets you more than 9.5m even if avoiding timeless. 21 gloves, 10 stompers, 15 cape, perf NT sword and mw20 would give around 10m. Can downgrade gear a little bit with mw30 as well which is almost certainly more economical at that tier of funding. I threw out the 100b number as that's probably not too far from the expected cost to make the gear Arlo was wearing in one of the quoted dpms :p
    upload_2022-5-11_9-17-28.png
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
    • Informative Informative x 3
  18. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is showing 8.6-8.7m dpm.
    For those asking for Hero buffs, how much more single-target damage do you think Heroes deserve?
     
  19. faithie
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    faithie King Slime

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    After doing some dpm tests, this is true. It seems that my initial inquiry into damage calculations between heroes and pallies (just based off pure percentage calculations) is wrong.

    Since I would like to think that our gears are on a similar level:
    upload_2022-5-12_7-10-42.png

    I can utilise your Hero's dpm test as a basis of comparison between a similarly geared pally (same gloves and cape, similarly scaled main weapon):
    upload_2022-5-12_7-13-1.png

    Since your Hero is ~10 levels lower than us, I would give the best estimate that a 186 similarly geared Hero would do 7.6m dpm single target.

    My new proposition is for brandish to be buffed to 110% for single target, 105% for duo target, 100% as per normal cleave. This would put Heroes at ~8.35m dpm instead of ~9m (as earlier proposed, which would outclass a pally on a neutral target). This means that a Hero would be able to deal ~95% of a Pally's dpm on a neutral target.

    In light of the proposition, the aforementioned still maintains Pally's outclassing of their Hero counterparts in terms of single target dpm. And, this is without factoring in elemental boost, which is arguably a Pally's main niche - that 8.77m dpm can be dealt at 150% damage.

    With this proposition, I also still maintain that this is a reasonable buff wherein a decently geared Hero's single target DPM is tolerable in a server that relies relatively heavily on single target DPM (i.e. the supposed end game boss PB). In the specific scenario of PB, a Hero would still not specifically be sought after since a Pally does everything a Hero can - and with an additional boost of heavy right bird damage - but can be slotted in.

    While your point stands that a bulky easy-to-play class shouldnt dish out damage equivalent of a squishy class with apparently high skill cap, I don't agree with the point that just because a class is supposedly an entry level class, it shouldnt be viable in the meta. Because with this statement being true, it brings up many different points for contention: Should mages just stay as entry level classes and sell leech? Should range classes that require washing necessarily be the sole recruitments across all bosses? Just to name a few that have been the points of discussion in the forums for I would think years.

    With the aforementioned buff, Heroes won't be meta, but are sufficiently viable, e.g. needing a last minute attacker for PB.

    Also, it seems like a class with "built in 1000 avoidability being almost stancelike, having 30k HP by washing hard enough, and no required mechanical play" should hence be nerfed ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I think that this sentiment is fine if HP washing wasn't a factor. Closing the gap between class dpm while also taking into consideration washing throws off class tier balance by quite a bit. I've said this before in other threads, but there is no reason Heroes should outdamage Shadowers in single target dpm. Shadower single-target damage would need to fall somewhere between Paladin and Heroes to make sense tier-wise, wouldn't you agree? So closing the gap between Paladins and Heroes give Shadowers an even smaller window for adjustments.

    That said, I don't disagree with your idea, but the Hero single-target buff I would prefer is through a rework of combo orb recharging to give Heroes more use out of their 3rd job skills. It could be temporary - like giving Enrage a secondary utility so that you can still use it while appling during PB like how BMs use conc while appling - where if Enrage is active, combo orbs regenerate faster or do not consume as many charges when using panic/coma. This would pave the way for Heroes to be able to use Panic much more frequently, which could theoretically increase their single target damage by a quite a bit. It could also give them a niche role as a pseudo pinner/aggro taker.

    One of the reasons why Buccs and Corsairs are IMO the best designed classes is because many of their earlier job skills get used even in late game. The design of the initial 4 classes were fairly flat, where skills outright replaced others. Buccs, on the other hand, has a vast array of skills from 1st - 4th job to pick from depending on the situation. THAT imo, is great design.

    Full Combo Brandish eclipsing Panic entirely is a damn shame.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1

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