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What is Your Ideal Ranking of the Class Roster?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Estrahl, May 12, 2022.

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  1. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    We've had a lot of discussions about classes and where they should stand against one another. Balance is a difficult subject to wrap your head around, especially if you can't just log into the game and test everything on all 12 of your level 200 characters with perfect abs and butts stats and gear(and like, what a loser you are for not having them on-hand at any time to rebut an argument, amiright? Gosh git gud you noob).

    We don't seem to understand each other's points of view on what we think should be ranked. No one has the same idea, so we argue and call each other doodooheads for not fitting our ideal rank list. It gets a little reductive, and people can't figure anything out because person A thinks Night Lords are top tier and shouldn't be, while person B thinks Night Lords aren't, but should be. We miss the forest for the trees because we're arguing over spit and sweat.

    So let's at least understand each other. What's your ideal balance list? You can be as detailed or indirect as you want. You can categorize everyone into tiers, write a list, use base classes, or whatever you want! You can rank as a general idea, single target, multi-target, by survivability, by health numbers, by stat allocation or gear progression(ease or lack of to obtain). Be yourself.

    This isn't a thread to suggest or imply that this is how any one person should think, I just want to see how the forums feel overall. We're all individuals at the end of the day, so we all have our own takes. But since I'm writing this I might as well start with my opinion:


    Specifically I'd rank my ideal or perceived classes by(with some caveats in parentheticals):

    Ranged(all should be within 5-8% of each other):​
    • Bowmaster & Marksman(should be about tied, but imo Bowmasters should have higher highs and lower lows, while Marksmen should have higher lows and lower highs)
    • Corsair(solidly in the middle, great all rounders and survivability)
    • Night Lord(should be lowest of the ranged because survivability is highest)
    Melee(all within 8-10% of Ranged):​
    • Paladin and Hero(should have competitively higher dps than each other based on the weaknesses of the bosses. If there is an elemental weakness, Paladins win out by 3-5%, otherwise Heroes etch out by about 1-2% in general)
    • Buccaneer
    • Shadower
    • Dark Knight
    Mages(lowest single damage but highest support and survivability, all within 9-12% of ranged numbers):​
    • Fire/Poison Archmage(high pure damage)
    • Ice/Lightning Archmage(freezes make up for slightly lower damage)
    • Bishop(heals and defense make up for lowest damage)


    Mages(as they have the lowest single target potential, they should have the highest multi target potential, and the ultimates sort of embody that concept, all within 4-7% of each other)​
    • Fire/Poison Archmage(again, highest pure damage, not much in the way of crowd control, so justify its lack of freeze and stuns)
    • Ice/Lightning Archmage(more freezing potential, saves on pots and gets hit less, but still very powerful)
    • Bishop(again with the highest defense and survivability, it doesn't need to compete for top, but it still is pretty high comparatively)
    Melee(middle stays in the middle, this one probably has the closest reversal I'd justify, damage falls probably about 9-13% behind mages):​
    • Dark Knight(3 lines and 3 monsters with Crusher, 8 monsters with Dragon Fury, 15 with Dragon Roar, it just makes the most sense why its MT would be among the highest)
    • Shadower(jack off all)
    • Buccaneer(more of a single target but also I just don't know too much, they could be higher or lower than Shads)
    • Paladin and Hero(pretty much same as single target)
    Ranged(damage likely around 13-23% behind mages):​
    • Corsair(big booms and a mini ultimate, more versatility than the archers, so ideally they'd be more useful in add phases).
    • Bowmaster and Marksman(again pretty much same thing as single target, because they have such high ST and a lot of options, their MT isn't falling off too hard)
    • Night Lord(this is where that 23% comes in, Night Lords just don't have a ton of options, so naturally their MT would be garbage compared to others. But with high survivability and less pot consumption it makes sense that they're great for single targets, even if they don't do the most damage. You don't need to be the best to be the most fun class)



    We could get into the reasons why later. But that's how I would like to see, and how I argue my points from that perspective. What're yours?
     
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  2. Lucidcat
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    Lucidcat Mixed Golem

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    May 14, 2021
    2:20 AM
    NL.jpg
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 3
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  3. Camazotz
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    Camazotz Pink Teddy

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    1:20 PM
    Camazotz, AoKuang, Heimdallr
    Dark Knight, Marksman, Shadower
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    "NLs should be the weakest range" is a hot take but it makes sense cause nothing hits them, however if they didn't do the more damage than archers there wouldn't be a point in the class. I can see Corsairs being the strongest since they are the most difficult to play.

    I don't really see why Heroes should do more damage than Paladins since brandish hits 3 targets and blast only hits 1. Same with Shadowers and assassinate, single target attacks should always beat out mob attacks IMO.

    Dark knights are in a weird spot where they have the lowest survivability of the warriors, and are also the hardest to play, and yet do the least damage. However its worth it if your party needs HB.
     
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  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    This is my pure opinion, without factoring the current class identity in ML:
    Single target ranking on neutral targets:
    1. Corsair
    2. NLs
    3. MM with SI (103%-105% of BM, or any form of negligible differences)
    4. BM
    5. DK (Zerk is pain)
    6. MM with no SI
    7. Bucc & Pally tied
    8. Hero 2h with SI
    9. Shad tied with Heroes 1h NT
    10. Hero 2h

    Cleave (2-4 targets) on neutral targets:
    1. Hero
    2. DK
    3. Shad
    4. Pally and Bucc tied

    Map attack:
    No opinion :)
     
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  5. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    2:20 PM
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    Can you not call shadoweres jack of all trades please, just because they have different skills for single target and cleave don't mean they're "jack of all trades", hero with brandish do more single target damage than assassinate and more cleave than b.step, and even pallies can cleave more, jack of all trades is buccanner, bringing utility to almost every situation.
    About class balancement, in my point of view they should bring more relevance to cleave, if not they can lower the gap between a cleaver dealing single target damage VS a single target attacker, everything should be fine with DRk after defense changes + a minor buff too, it is the only class i'll never create, single targets are balanced between their niche, maybe corsairs are overpowered, but they deserve being the top1 class.
     
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  6. thsscapi
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    thsscapi Mushmom

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    Isn't that what jack of all trades means though? If Shadower does more damage with all their skills, that would be... king of all trades.

    The jack of all trades of Shadowers refers to their usefulness in all contents and all scenarios, not their damage. You wouldn't bring an NL to a popular grinding spot, but you would bring a Shad. You wouldn't bring an average Mage to HT, but you would bring a Shad.
    GrindingBossingABCDEFGH
    xxxxxxxx
    xxxxxxxx
    ShadxxShadxx
    xxShadxxShad
    xxxxxxxx
    NLArchmageWarriorxx
    In all scenarios, Shads are always in the mid-tier, but never in the top or bottom tier, unlike other classes which would be top-tier in some and bottom-tier in others.
     
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  7. Camazotz
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    Camazotz Pink Teddy

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    Shads do less single target damage than heroes if you have SE or SI, since assassinate does not benefit from either, making them bottom tier in single target bosses. They also do less cleave damage than paladins (which aren't even supposed to be a cleave class) in CWK if you have SI.
     
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  8. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Pallies and heroes can cleave grind and single target equally or more then shad. other then a lack of buff, this puts us as jack of all trades too i think
     
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  9. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Nah its more like bottom tier in everything, almost every class in the game can go to every content, probably only NL can't grind (can last hit FoT with taunt), there is ZERO scenarios where buccanner, archers, paladins are not useful, and stop using mage as parameter since they're bullied (for no reason) at HT and have the worse scaling on the game, lets talk about the "attacker" classes.

    Even single target damage dealers can deal more cleave, and even cleavers can do more single target damage, why in the world we're jack of all trades? This term is just non-sense and can be used in almost any situation and don't bring nothing about the class, for example, let's remove genesis because bishop is already jack of all trades, cleaving on big bang and dealing single target on angel ray, while providing hs and rez.
    We can always use bucc as example too, since they can cleave, single target, while providing 3x more utility than a shadower, nothing against buccanner, but they are the true jack of all trades.

    You literally choose the more niche classes on the game, mages are GODs in grind and NL on bosses, try be less biased and choose another classes please.
     
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  10. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    Marchilles/Annolis/ Atlan/Katroz/ Chokal/Corvack/Tisif/ Quallo/Crisilixin/Forg/ Nannosh/Tylius
    Crusader, White Knight, Dragon Knight, F/P Mage, I/L Mage, Priest, Ranger, Sniper, Hermit, Chief Bandit, Marauder, Outlaw
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    Diversity of gameplay is everything to me. If one class can outdo the others to the point where people question, "Why bother making that?" (Like the Dual Blade did to Shadowers and the Blaze Wizard did to F/P on GMS) then there is a BIG problem with the game.

    Bishops and Pirates are the lowest on my list. Buccs & Corsairs are and should remain weaker mashups of the melee and ranged classes, respectively, but should be a utilitarian class that any party would want because of their resourcefulness, not for DPM. Bishops, obviously, should have the lowest DPM and be able to help with adds, heals, and removing debuffs from the party.

    Shads & DKs would be the next step up. They're DPM should be higher than the Pirates while giving their party some much needed protective buffs.

    NLs, MMs, and BMs, would be the next three in ascending order. The NL should be a glass cannon, capable of massive damage while easily disrupted and requires party members to keep mobs off of them so they can be at peak efficiency. The MM should be less squishy and a lower DPM. The BM should have the lowest DPM and the least squishy. The BM should also have the greatest advantage to handling mobs while the MM should have some and the NL none or very little.

    F/P, I/L, and Paladin are the next three in ascending order. These are specialists who should be able to take down any set of mobs or bosses that have critical weaknesses. They should be able to out-damage all other classes when the weakness is present, including an uninhibited NL. If the weakness is not there, they should have a DPM under the BM.

    Heroes should be the highest on the tier list being the tank of a party with even damage on any enemy. The Pally and DK can tank easily, too, but they should be used only in specialized situations or if a Hero is not available. The Hero's DPM should be between the BM and the MM on average, out-damaging the BM, F/P, I/L, and Paladin on neutral mobs / bosses.

    Nightlord
    Marksman
    Hero
    Bowmaster
    Paladin
    I/L
    F/P
    Shadower
    Dark Knight
    Corsair
    Buccaneer
    Bishop

    Paladin
    I/L
    F/P
    Nightlord
    Marksman
    Bowmaster
    Hero
    Shadower
    Corsair
    Buccaneer
    Dark Knight
    Bishop

    Buccaneer
    Corsair
    Bishop
    Dark Knight
    Shadower
    Paladin
    I/L
    F/P
    Bowmaster
    Marksman
    Hero
    Nightlord
     
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  11. Edann
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    Edann Slimy Retired Staff

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    Wait what. We can freeze?
     
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  12. thsscapi
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    thsscapi Mushmom

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    I see what you mean. I agree that "jack of all trades" doesn't mean much.

    That said, I didn't choose other classes because I have not played all of them, so I wouldn't know where they are in the tiers. I only chose niche classes as an obvious example of the tiers.
    For example, NL is obviously bottom tier in grinding, but also obviously top tier in bossing (exact opposite for Mages). So both NL and Mages are NOT jack of all trades.

    Shads are NOT bottom tier in grinding, but also NOT top tier in bossing. For both grinding and bossing, they are somewhere in the middle.
    This is the true meaning of jack of all trades. Which, as you pointed out, does not mean much. I get it now.
     
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