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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. faithie
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    faithie King Slime

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    Ok, both very fair points. Fully agree - perhaps we shouldn't be looking it at this from a pure dpm buff POV, but more on potential utility buff
     
  2. MELO
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    MELO Orange Mushroom

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    I like this solution, but I think I can't or don't know how to modify it with kimmy's ability.
     
  3. Kyshies
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    Kyshies Slimy

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    Is mass sed a custom thing?
     
  4. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    with a 5% difference in damage, on paper, pally will still retain #1 in damage.
    The main question I have is, how significant is this 5% damage?
    If 5% is not a significant difference, then Heroes and Pallies will be interchangable outside of bosses with elemental weakness and cleave metas.
    I have not went for a HT run before, please correct me if I'm wrong. But as I recall now, Heroes can currently cleave an arm and a head without causing mass sed. As pallies HH is map wide, its not possible to HH without triggering mass sed.
    This might cause heroes to replace pallys on low-man count HT runs as damage boost on single target from paladin is considered insignificant, and can be better optimized by Heroes doing cleave for a section of the run.

    If its still considered a big gap in damage, most people would still not pick hero for their very sweaty low-man runs (6 man HT or 18-20 man PB) as that low damage will continue to grief in such situations.
    If its the usual 10-12 man HT, or 30 man PB, I believe Heroes are already accepted. In that case, I'm not sure what this damage boost is attempting to solve - in regards to having Heroes getting accepted
     
  5. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Nope, but it wasn’t there in ML HT before. I believe they made it more GMS authentic later, introducing it
     
  6. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    I can't agree with you on this point, a class being a "entry level class" shouldn't be a balance parameter, it's unfair to people who like the class and play it, and farm for it, any warrior 18x+ spent more effort than a well washed ranged who just afk vote for 1year and start playing with leech till 150, 160+.
    For me the best way to change hero it's the ChrisChris suggestion, making his damage splits for every monster hit, while just increasing raw damage of drk (i think with the defense changes zerking will be fixed) and making his 2~3 targets ways above hero, i'm pretty sure auf haven have a shadow, where drk can shine while heroes still doing good damage, if cleave isn't too significant we should bring less damage gap between the classes, and please don't come with "this will hurt the identity of the class", pre-bbb sucks in balance and class design, as you said, only pirates had a good design (even being underpowered).
    "Fixing cleave" at horntail seems good too, but personally i don't like niche'ing classes, everyone should be at least decent for everything, we don't have that much content to private ourselfs of doing some of then.

    I'm saying all of this as a player without too much experience here, but this is how i see the way it should be balanced, making rangeds just better than other classes because they need (right now) previous planning seems like a elitist way to think.

    EDIT: Pally outperform NL's in grinding, non-se scenarios, and i can be wrong, but in NT too, if we choose washing as balance parameter we should nerf pallies, ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶m̶a̶g̶e̶s̶?
     
  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    So give me specific DPM numbers. We know heroes can reach a dummy dpm of 10m+ with good funding. How much more single target damage do you want, specifically?
     
  8. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    This should be discussed with staff and experienced heroes / endgame people, i'm just showing my way of how the game should works, nothing personal about heroes :p
    i'm just a pretty new shadower and would like if you keep fighting for my class like above ^^
     
  9. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I agree with this but

    With regards to heroes, I don't see hear that they griefing runs due to low damage. Just because we have one of the lower single target DPM compared to other classes, doesn't mean we have don't have decent single target DPM.
    If you have seen or heard from others that they griefed runs due to low single target DPM then, at least there are evidence to prove otherwise.
     
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  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Being an entry level class absolutely should be a balance parameter, otherwise you're asking for either a homogenous experience all around or complete imbalance between the classes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Does this applies to pally too? Considering we share the same washing gearing, and almost same grinding experience
     
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  12. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    ok, so we can remove mages from the game, they literally fund any class and change the entire way of how the game 'll be played, and it is the best entry class right now, the easiest to fund, the easiest to farm, and the easiest to join bosses.
    And the experience 'll never be homogenous, every class have their unique qualities, making they able to progress in different ways across the game, but in the end, someone who just afk'ed vote needs to be stronger? They're better players?
    I'm making a 19k shadower, and it is very easy, farm with mage, buy leech or self leech, if i made a NL i should be stronger than everyone who taught me how to play the game, and played across years, because they choose melees?
    You actually need 6 months~ to start playing a very very well washed corsair, it is the time to create a mage, farm and create him, its not a challenge, please, gtop100 should'nt be a class balance parameter.
    The time required to be a end game player matches with the wash, someone who played sometimes even more can't be relevant like you because they like the wrong class?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Can you define what you mean by "entry level class" and which classes do and do not fall into this category? I've seen you mention it a couple times but I don't really understand.
     
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  14. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    I may be wrong but I think he means the low effort required for washing and grinding, and the low cost of the gears that makes a class entry level
     
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Entry-level classes are classes that are best suited for new players. In other games, this would be locked behind X amount of gameplay, certain amount of quest clears, etc. In Legends, it's locked behind a necessary time gate of HP washing.

    In a different game, if you were given the option to choose the very last unlockable character at the very beginning, it'd make the gameplay somewhat bland, right? Either the last unlockable character would have to be a weenie and not have any advantages over the starter character, or the early game would play out very boring because you'd be too overpowered for early-level content. There needs to be a natural progression towards unlocking new characters for lots of game design to make sense. Legends is no different.

    There is a specific hierarchy of classes that demand more from them but in turn yield more. For example - imagine if Corsairs did less damage than Heroes. Would anybody ever play them? For a class that demands much more skill and much more washing, why would anybody ever play that class if they did shit tier damage? With the weaknesses of being squishy (in hp-washing meta, low HP gain) and having dpm limiters (boat break), Corsairs get fairly rewarded in having a high damage output.

    To summarize:
    • If Heroes were comparible in dpm to Corsairs, why would anybody choose the harder path? (Homogenous experience)
    • If hp washing didn't exist - or didn't need to exist - why would anybody play the weaker classes? (Complete imbalance between the classes)
    With all that said, washing isn't even that big of a hurdle, and it is possible to make a Corsair as your first character as GetSmoked and Kierkegaard have shown.

    Yes, Paladins are probably the best bossing-ready starter class at the moment - beside the obvious Mages that are good at everything. This is simply because most relevant content in this meta is single-target oriented. If Horntail pre-head to three-head meta wasn't so dominant, Heroes and DKs would be the clear winner out of the warrior classes for HT.
     
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  16. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Anyone asked for heroes DPM being equivalent as corsairs? This is UNFAIR, they're a cleave class who have "very reliable" stance, but lets take pallies as a balance parameter since they have almost same function, they outperform NL's in some ways and have some good points above corsair, while corsair can bring rewards to good players, pallies is easier to shine, THIS is balance, its not voting on GTOP and filling captchas to make a better class overall, if the gate between these classes are in game progression it is less worse, but you want reward players who fill captchas?

    Washing isn't well designed, and it is created to make the game p2w, instead of fixing the MANDATORY hp washing we're making this a balance parameter and legends design? So why they're trying to change this?

    Legends staff already told us they're trying to bring tankiness to warriors and more danger to well-washed characters, if the server didn't had wash, this would be happenning right now without need of changes, ranged class would be SQUISHY AF and vulnerable, not happenning right now, well washed character have more surviveability than melees.
    Washing is the thing who brings unbalance, and please, we're in a LEECH META, only fire poisons have a good time level 90~130, its not the hardest patch, with a mage you can play half of the time, get funding and buy leech all the way.

    (Unpopular opinion, but hermits are a good 3 job, they have a bad time only in early 4 job, but is one of the class who reachs max potential first, and have insane endgame, only corsairs sucks lol)
     
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Heroes and DKs do almost 2x the damage of every other class in cleave-relevant content - mages included. If pinkbean was suddenly turned into three targets, would Heroes be considered broken? The problem isn't class balance, it's content.

    Heroes do very, very well in cleave content. Making them even stronger in single target damage should only be met with some type of cleave damage nerf, but then you'd just be turning Heroes into Paladins.
     
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  18. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    You're absolutely right, but since pink bean and almost every boss is single target and this is not being changed (maybe HT only), all we can wish is a good NT pt.2, with more planning than PB (for me this boss ruins the server) messing with all hp wash requirements and increasing gap between single/cleave.

    And of course, heroes/drk/shads changes who can bring these classes to a satisfatory place in ANY boss, maybe making brandish simmilar to heal wasn't the best idea, and all of this can be discussed, the community have good ideas, lets just put it on the staff hands and wait ^^

    I don't know why heroes claim that much a buff instead of DRK, in my oppinion DRK have the worst place between the classes right now, hard to play, low reward and meme damage in one boss, they can shine in some situations, but its nothing too relevant to kill the class in one boss :(
    Someppl can say shads for low damage or heroes for their lack of damage/buffs, but in my oppinion, only DRK are "almost" content-limited (Bish too, but since it is the most mandatory class in the game rn it don't matters that much as drk), everyone should do at least mediocre damage, this is not fair in my vision.
     
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  19. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Thanks for taking your time to write out a detailed answer :). I'm still curious which jobs you'd consider entry level or not outside of hero/sair/mages/pally that you mentioned but this makes your statement much clearer.

    People choose the harder path because there's a distinct difference between (most) jobs. If they all played the same but some were weaker than others it wouldn't make much sense sure but I think there's enough out there to differentiate between the jobs to ensure you don't have to balance them perfectly for people to pick the weaker ones.

    I'm also curious what you consider to be the goal to work towards is. If it is reaching a level where you can do the late/end game bosses (155+) then yes hero will have an easier time than a sair (though the sair would have a better time actually doing the boss runs) but if it is reaching level 200 then I'd reckon it's easier for the corsair (unless you REALLY enjoy 7F). As you said reaching the hp required to do content is fairly trivial so there must be something else there.
     
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  20. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Many modern mmo have classes that are more accessible than others. Whether their gimmicks are easier to understand or even execute, it is good to have classes like those so that more people can play the game. Just look at all the players who say "I always die so I picked NL/shad". But to claim that more accessible classes either should or should not be distinctly worse than alternatives is questionable design. The claim that players would have no reason to play the "harder" class if the accessible one was viable can easily be reversed. Why would anybody want to start with an accessible class if they know it must be dumped in favor of a class they don't want to play? Washing is a pain but you've admitted yourself that it is doable on an initial char. Some players do like the archetype/playstyles of accessible classes, and to suggest that since it is faster to get running it should not be competitive comes off somewhat elitist.

    Notice that threads prettt much only talk about single target damage, and virtually ignore cleave or close quarters fighting. Perhaps the biggest balancing tool is the breadth of available content. CWK being likely the first and last time warrior cleave can shine really paints the picture in how a class that never received any direct nerfs is considered bottom of the barrel in the greater metagame.

    Personally, I attribute much of hero's issues to an extreme overlap between them and DKs. Both could use some love in the available content department, but it wont change the fact that they are the very similar, but one has a party buff in exchange for a more difficult gimmick. I've said this before in other threads but I actually do believe hero should have comparable (virtually equal) single target to ele-neutral pally, and comparable cleave to dk, only slightly lower in ideal, zerkable scenarios. This goal separates each of the warriors in a general sense, allowing all 3 to coexist. Paladin sees an extreme boost in elemental content (of which there is still quite a bit), hero regains the "Swiss Army knife" dpm moniker it used to have, and dk can become a cleave specialist with defensive party support useful even in single target.

    On the topic of heroes specifically, the biggest circle we keep running around here is that hero single target is already passable, and even a slight boost would send cleave damage off the charts. This is why a retooling of the hero (and honestly even dk) is so necessary. Even if we want to change single target output, we can't because it is so ingrained with cleave output tied to the same skill. This is why a separation of skills is not only more engaging gameplay, but also necessary design. It does not need to be as wildly multi-dimensional as pirates, but hero/dk are currently in an unbalanceable state when their cleave skill is also their prime single target skill. I don't have direct numbers to make a claim as to how much more single target a hero needs, if any, but it is not a numbers issue to say that providing a layer of separation between single target and cleave damage is a necessary change for these classes.

    #BuffPanicAndComa
    #MakeComboAttackCombo
    #PipForPres
     
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