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Making Heros Useful Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by datahush, May 9, 2022.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    This is more a testament to how broken and unbalanced mages are currently. There really is no justification to them doing well in bossing situations when they're also dominant in every other category of this game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Togain
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    Togain Orange Mushroom

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    I've been following this thread for a little bit and from what I've gathered, this overall seems more like a content problem as well as an issue of a hyper-optimized meta rather than a class-specific problem. Reading through these forums gives one the impression that it's not even remotely worth making a Hero or a DrK until they get mega buffs, which is really not the case at all. I'm all for buffing weaker classes, but I don't believe Hero and DrK (since that's become part of the conversation now as well) are weak classes. It's more that they don't manage to excel in the points they're meant to excel in, as -ovv said, and they fail to do as well as Night Lords (???) in content they're not necessarily designed to excel in. I personally believe the former is far more of a concern than Heroes not being desired in Pink Bean, but that's not really the point of this thread.

    Not every class can be amazing at every piece of content. The fact that there's a significant distinction between single-target and cleave content is indicative of this. Even as a DrK main I simply have a Marksman available to me who can excel in single-target content (I promise it's not solely due to the fact that an SI mule is so valuable for both of them angelmush). Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though the issue with Hero in PB is mostly an issue with the top tier runs of endgame content. Not the "casual" PB run, but the ones that are concerned with being as incredibly efficient as is possible, which I understand is the entire meta of this server, but that doesn't make Heroes weak, it just makes them not the meta pick.

    In the interest of simultaneously appealing to tradition and also advocating for forward progress (I.E. allowing me to play both sides at once), I'd love to see a version of this server where every class is equally relevant, but that has simply never been the case. Why would you ever not make an NL and mule SE? There's also the argument that Hero has a low barrier to entry, but this is partially relying on the idea that HP washing is both an intended mechanic as well as a good one (which we're all aware it's not). HP washing severely changes the balance of the game. There's also the nearly useless stat known as defense which could potentially be an avenue to buff warriors as a whole, making them more efficient in bossing scenarios. As far as I can tell from the 2022 roadmap post, these are both things staff want to address in future updates.

    No matter what happens, people will always complain that x class is not good enough even if, in reality, it is "good enough". That's something you will find in literally any game that has more than one class/gun/character/option in general. It's good to have these kinds of discussions, don't get me wrong. I just really don't see any valid arguments for Heroes being underpowered aside from "They're not the absolute top tier meta pick for the most optimized Pink Bean runs and other single-target content", which again brings me back to the point of this being primarily a content issue as well as an overall old school design issue, and something that would be better addressed by adjusting the game and not the class itself. Which seems to me like what the staff is actively working on. As well as what was mentioned previously with helping them truly thrive in the content they're supposedly supposed to thrive in.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    there wasnt this much furor before the release of PB. PB led to this. fix PB.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    Just look at Marksman's popularity before and after Pink bean, you will realise how a once-a-week content can push the perspective of a class.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  5. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    PB just sucks, i never saw a boss release breaking that much the server meta, when i joined legends for the 1st time some people told me hero is the #1 attacker besides nightlord, one boss released and this view is destroyed, seems like people are underestimating heroes, but i can't agree with the pov of increasing boss niches, everyone should be good for atleast join in the boss runs, maybe the timer is too low? i don't know, but seems like the MATT formula and the archmages just destroy cleaver attackers necessity on this boss, for me the worst mistake on pre-bbb, this stupid m.att formula.
    It is very easy to say that's a content problem, the true problem is, what we're going to add? BlackMage? it's not that easy, after neo tokyo2 i only can think in balrog being add with changes to be less annoying and more cleave, after all the easiest way to solve all of this is buffing the classes instead of waiting for years for a chance of cleave content, and maybe change the entire pb run and mages on it
     

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  6. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    imagine if mages did half dmg to pb body?
     
  7. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Pink bean isn't the only factor that makes cleave classes look bad, but rather is just added to the ever growing list. Some are so hyperfixated that classes such as hero are only bad because PB came out (and were fine until then), while others claim that hero is fine for "casual" pb, which imo is only partially true.

    The release of PB certainly came with its fair share of viability changes, but they really only highlight the issue at hand. Whether it is lack of cleave-based content that range cannot perform in, or the gap between cleave/single target damage being too large, the fact of the matter is cleave-oriented classes don't have a great standing.

    What is the quoted "cleave content"? From this thread players highlight cwkpq, jc, and ht (and occasionally zak arm, which is actually best done by archmage). None of these are noteworthy, or are actually simply incorrect. CWKPQ is probably the best on the list, as some form of cleave is generally considered a requirement, but half of the fight requires range as well (pirate) and cwk as a whole is relatively antiquated content, lost to the power creep of higher level content.

    JC isn't even cleave content, or at least it doesn't have to be. Groups that can't cleave the summons simply have to have their hs (whether player or mule) lure them to the other side, for minor exp loss (or just afk poison them and watch them die with little effort). Ultimately, JC needs dpm, and ranged classes have easy solutions to circumvent cleave utility.

    Speaking of circumventing cleave, enter Horntail. Not to gatekeep, but players these days don't know the meaning of "cleave" friendly ht. Alyosha already posted an analysis of HT accounting for the prehead portion of the fight. The current ht is in no way cleave friendly; at best a (single) cleave can barely keep up with ranged output, all while playing tightrope as to not jeopardize the run with mass seduce, which I'd be curious if players have completely forgotten how to deal with. Even head cleave is okay, but far from amazing enough to wish to actively seek it out. All in all, ht is "cleave friendly" in the sense that a cleaver won't automatically be excluded from a run, but nobody is saying "we could really use a cleaver". Cross HT off the cleave list.

    I'm not sure why people are so quick to claim that PB killed cleavers. They were already on life support, probably ever since HT was given 3 seds and 2 mass seds per arm.

    In a final note, I'd also like to point out that archmage gets its best use in pb once runner slots can be reduced. Archmage does not do great statue damage. Statue is still about half the fight by timer and contains the most run-ending potential. Archmage only really provides mini bean utility until the body phase where they can shine. Doing half damage on statue and double on body puts them on par with everyone else. A "casual" 30 man pb can certainly still make use of archmage, but they don't get their "godlike" status until a squad can afford to reduce runners and smuggle a/ms in as 2nd half substitutes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    What is a casual PB? Having 10 funded to the teeth NLs carry the fight so that you can take any random riffraff? This is a somewhat serious inquiry loaded with a meme question.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  9. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    I think a better word maybe is "class balanced content", both cleave and single target range is needed, no one is truely replace-able or outclassed.
    But yes, the lack of coins in cwkpq is the law straw that killed cleave in the latest updated, swinging the favour just too much to the range.
    Even our min-max-pog-hero MuscleUncle doesn't run 3man cwkpq with bonus buyer split, and choose to just solo JC for the coins, more so with raising coin prices.

    The cwk reward should definitely be fixed since they are the only boss that doesn't drop coins, this topic probably should be in another suggestion thread, oh well.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    not sharing the coins dropped from the 3 bosses. screw ranged LOL
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  11. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    some has suggested dropping pouch 1 in bonus. that will give everyone a fair chance i guess
     
  12. thsscapi
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    thsscapi Mushmom

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    While I agree that it is much too extreme that Hero went from #1 to getting destroyed (I'm taking your word for it), I would like to point out that that is what should happen. The meta revolves around content and class balance. If adding literally the strongest boss in the game doesn't change the meta, that must make it the most boring update ever.

    Again, things should change with such a huge update, but I'm agreeing that extreme changes are too much.
     
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  13. TWW
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    TWW Pink Teddy

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    "B-B-BUT THEY'RE GOOD AT CLEAVE"
    *meanwhile no decent cleave bosses*

    Here's a 156 Corsair with a 102 gun and 130 INT blowing the FUCK out of a fully washed 189 Hero with a PERFECT ST.
    I think I finally know who you guys are that claim heroes are "alright".
    Hi Mr.30KHP/MP, NL, BM, SAIR, RWTER, HACKER.
     
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  14. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    u got me somewhere there :geek: yikes!
     
  15. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    Wow. This is the saddest picture ive seen in these forums
     
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  16. stomachache
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    stomachache Horny Mushroom

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    hello im a hero but i dont play anymore.
    the whole heroes kinda suck situation started around pink bean's introduction to the server no? (also the changes on horntail long time ago too iirc)
    but it's really just the end game(pb) rely more on single-target instead so theres nothing else much to say for heroes. :yay:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Both singletarget dummy dpm? If so, horrendous comparison
     
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  18. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    hero is incredibly weak
    only solution: buff axes XatWink
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Theres another one with an FP archmage doing more single target damage than a blunt weapon paladin.
     
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  20. KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    Is more efficient on the right unless you are a Shadower and the left arm can dispel pretty soon messing up a bit the Bishop. Cleave is just not meta but if you want you still.

    The thing is HT is the only decent boss that could be cleaved because of exp, and I would say drops but welp.... you are playing ML. CWKPQ is ok if you get something good but is kinda meh. About PB, I think people need to stop idolizing it as the true endgame super boss, first, the true endgame is penta-mage at least if you want to be able to afford the items it drops (I only kill PB and some bosses and I can't afford the drops). Now how the boss works, I'm not sure if anything can be done or will be done, mules will still the on the menu along with strong 1vs1 attackers and Buccs cos someone has to deal with the aggro and attack into damage reflect as it was meant to be done, perhaps making PB resist all elements would take out the Mage attackers back into the real endgame (farming) but Hero and DK would still be the same x-x.

    All three warriors are on a weird balance state where Paladin is the 1vs1 attacker Hero is the cleaver and DK is a mule, make hero better for 1vs1 and perhaps Paladin will start to pale a bit, make DK an actual DPS (which is what I would like since it needs more attention that the other 2 warriors) and you become an attacker with a pretty good buff so the other 2 warriors pale. Is hard to balance with huge, huge changes. I would have made Paladin a support tank, Hero the DPS and DK the all-rounder but meh, nothing can be done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3

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