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Hero/Paladin Relevance: Dispelling Weapon/Magic Cancel

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by twing1, May 24, 2022.

  1. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    To keep Heroes and Paladins relevant in end-game bossing, the ability to dispel a boss's Weapon Cancel should be added into the Hero's toolkit and the ability to dispel a boss's Magic Cancel should be added into the Paladin's toolkit. Because each of these abilities are extremely powerful and potentially meta-changing, there should be drawbacks to each ability that promote active play and work against muling these classes for their added utility. The proposed solutions:
    1. Hero's "Armor Crash" will be modified to dispel both Weapon Defense Up and Weapon Cancel. "Armor Crash" will also act as "Panic" or "Coma" in that it can only be used when "Combo Attack" or "Advanced Combo Attack" is fully charged, and upon using "Armor Crash" the combos will be depleted and must be built up again. This would require a Hero to use "Combo Attack" and charge it up completely before they can use "Armor Crash".
    2. Paladin's "Magic Crash" will be modified to dispel both Magic Defense Up and Magic Cancel. "Magic Crash" will also act as "Charged Blow" in that it can only be used when a charge ability is active (Fire/Ice/Thunder Charge), and upon using "Magic Crash" the charge skill will be canceled. This would require a Paladin to use either Fire, Ice, or Thunder Charge before they can use "Magic Crash".

    Hey yall,

    I want to bring to light something that I know has been talked about on the forums before, but in my opinion has been overlooked: Hero's "Armor Crash" canceling weapon cancels, and Paladin's "Magic Crash" canceling magic cancels.

    As of now, the server's end game stands in a state of favoring strong single-target DPM ranged attackers, as these classes more closely meet the demands of the environment of end game bosses (like pink bean). As a result, warrior classes (and in particular Hero) are being phased out of end game content because of both their lack of group utility and also their lack of competitive single target DPM. Dark knights already have group utility in "Hyper Body", so this thread isn't targeted at them, and instead focuses more on bumping up the group utility of their Hero and Paladin counterparts. The solution would be giving these classes access to dispelling a boss's Weapon/Magic Cancels, with some caveats.

    This solution is actually not mine; I found it in a reply to an old thread about Weapon/Magic Cancels, and I wanted to create a whole new post for it because I found it so deserving. I wish I could take credit for it because I think it's an almost perfect solution to this issue, but alas I cannot. The credit belongs to GunzGamingGunzGaming in their reply to the "A spin to weapon cancels" thread from June, 2021, and it reads as follows:


    To summarize this solution (and to focus in on just the Hero and Paladin aspect of it), here are the bullet points:

    1. Hero's "Armor Crash" will dispel both Weapon Defense Up and Weapon Cancel. "Armor Crash" will also act as "Panic" or "Coma" in that it can only be used when "Combo Attack" or "Advanced Combo Attack" is fully charged, and upon using "Armor Crash" the combos will be depleted and must be built up again. This would require a Hero to use "Combo Attack" and charge it up completely before they can use "Armor Crash".
    2. Paladin's "Magic Crash" will dispel both Magic Defense Up and Magic Cancel. "Magic Crash" will also act as "Charged Blow" in that it can only be used when a charge ability is active (Fire/Ice/Thunder Charge), and upon using "Magic Crash" the charge skill will be canceled. This would require a Paladin to use either Fire, Ice, or Thunder Charge before they can use "Magic Crash".

    This solution accomplishes a few things:

    1. It gives much-needed group utility to Heroes. As most end-game groups are composed of weapon attackers (sorry mages), Heroes are undoubtedly getting the better utility skill here, which comes at the cost of being harder to use. Under the proposed solution, in order to use "Armor Crash" to dispel Weapon Cancel, a Hero must first fully charge their combo counter and then deplete it on use. This not only balances out the stronger dispel vs. Paladin's dispelling of Magic Cancel, but also works to prevent muling of the class, as it requires the hero to be actively fighting the boss and not AFK before using the dispel.
    2. It gives Paladins a niche group utility as a magic support role. Paladins already have higher single target DPM numbers than Heroes, so it makes sense that Heroes be the ones to receive the stronger group utility skill. The dispelling of Magic Cancel is a lot more niche and less desired than the dispelling of Weapon Cancel, but it would allow for the existence of positive synergies between Paladins and the Mage classes and open the door to new strategies and mechanics while bossing. Mages would be more viable while working with a Paladin, and Paladins too would be more viable while working with Mages. The Magic Cancel dispel too would be locked behind a pre-requisite to prevent muling, in that a Paladin's charge ability has to be active before the dispel can be used.
    3. Promotes end-game group composition diversity. As it stands now, some classes are left out of end-game bossing group compositions, while others are a necessity. Night Lords and Corsairs are always welcome because of their strong single target DPM, this will not change. Other classes are also accepted, as mules or otherwise because of their group utility (Buccaneers for "Speed Infusion", Archers for "Sharp Eyes", Dark Knights for "Hyper Body", etc). Adopting this change would promote the use of Heroes and Paladins in end game content, while at the same time discouraging their use as mules because of the pre-requisites to their powerful dispels.

    I'm not a developer, but it would seem like these changes would be fairly easy to implement as well. There is nothing custom being built; in both cases there is already code for the combo consumption (look toward Charged Blow for Paladins and Panic/Coma for Heroes), it would just be a matter of pulling it into Magic Crash and Armor Crash. The dispel mechanic is already present too, its just a matter of adding another monster buff to the list of dispelled buffs. Unless there is something I am not seeing or understanding, these improvements should be entirely doable. Balance would be the only question.

    I for one see this as a seamless solution to warriors', and in particular Heroes', current irrelevance in end game bossing. Paladins are already doing better in the single target DPM department, but this would also cut open a niche role for them in magic buffing, which would potentially open the door to end game magic groups. As mentioned earlier, all credit for this solution goes to GunzGamingGunzGaming as this is simply copy pasted from one of their replies to a post last year. I just came across it and thought it deserved its own forum post for consideration.
     
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  2. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Mules galore
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. JKNS
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    JKNS Selkie Jr.

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    Charging Combo orbs is a nothing task, this just makes Hero even more muleable than it is now in the endgame.
     
  4. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    While I've always been a fan of a similar concept for improving utility of heroes (making enrage a party buff and further tweaking its benefit) for the reason that hero design allows for the dispensing of buffs/utility to require more than just the single press of a button, the requirement of charging orbs is still way too trivial for a benefit as large as doing away with weapon cancels entirely, especially with a second computer. I hate to be that guy who is responsible for why we can't ever have good things but I can say without a doubt that I would "abuse" the hell out of this with a LUK hero at places like HT, zak, and even krex left eye (I'd mention scar & targa but they're irrelevant content).

    Furthermore, while I would not say it necessarily precludes further changes to the pally toolkit (anything that makes classes more interactive is a good thing), it probably deserves mention that paladins are already top tier with respect to single target damage at not just NT but also PB and HT (tied for 3rd highest in both PB and HT), something that doesn't seem to be well-known, which is highly respectable for what many might consider an "entry-level" class. The requirement of having a charge is also way too trivial for a cancel removal. That being said, the idea of a skill that allows for greater inclusivity in bossing is a cute one, at least in a world where mages aren't already just about good at everything already.
     
  5. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Removing an entire physical/weapon cancel is an enormous increase in output. Heroes would not become more popular, but crash mules would. The only way to truly prevent muling would be tieing its cd to dpm. Even then it's still hugely impactful even from an overall power standpoint.

    If we must look into armor/power/magic crash, they need effects not totally eclipsed by dispel. Nerfing enemy buff removal from dispel is one method, but that hurts one of the few things bishop in bossing actually provides. A healthy alternative would be to additionally provide the crashes stat reduction effects.

    Hero/armor crash- Reduces enemy w.def/m.def by a flat or percentile amount (either by a better amount or activation range than threaten or work in tandem with threaten). Take a page (ha) out of threaten's book and provide a direct damage boost to the party or squad by piercing armor.

    Paladin/magic crash- Reduce enemy magic attack by a flat or percentile amount. Soften enemies magic attacks up a bit and get closer to "wash optional". Magic attacks are the ones most likely to kill ranged characters. Combined with threaten, paladin can provide minor stat debuffs from w.att/w.def and m.att.

    Dark knight/power crash- reduce enemy w.att by flat or percentile. Either more potent than threaten, better range than threaten or work in tandem with it to give a niche. Reducing w.att covers the remaining gap in stat debuffs, and between hb and power crash, can do massive work towards wash optional memes, and helps the warriors likely to take touch damage recieve some tankiness from the dk beyond 30k. If impactful enough, it could even allow a well-managed zerking dk to not get 1-shot by the bean.

    Even this is all still technically muleable, but so is everything in this game. Stat crashing is at least beneficial without being outright mandatory like cancel crashing would be (look at other servers to see what happened there). I'm all for creating a less mulable server, but there is simply no way to accomplish that when even DPM is considered effectively mulable.
     
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  6. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Realistically, it would just turn Heroes down the path of current Dark Knights(and from the original Paladin build) in being a pure luk&HP dump as the meta build. The suggestion doesn't go far enough to understand the current meta of the game, but then again folks rarely talk about it and folks would rather bury their heads in the sand and say they're fine out of some misunderstanding of class balance than admit that there are problems with the classes as they currently stand.
     
  7. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    what if it cancel only a part of the wc?
    for example in other server crash pass 70% of hit, we can have less % to not worth mule it, but it must to have in party?
     
  8. iccqqq
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    iccqqq Dark Stone Golem

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    ''NO YOU CANT IT WILL BE MULE-ABLE''
    everything is muled already stop crying XatCry
     
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  9. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Yeah lets fuck it up worse dude lets goooo
     
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  10. OP
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    twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    To be frank, I'm really not that concerned with how the upper echelon of players (what, maybe 10% of the player base, and that's being generous?) that multi-client to log into multiple characters at once will create a Hero/Paladin class to mule the improved Crash skills, if they are amended. That's going to happen to each and every class that has a powerful group utility skill (just look at SI mules, HS mules, HB mules, etc). Its unavoidable.

    What I am far more concerned about is how the more casual player that single-clients a single character, the way the game was designed to be played is to be affected. These players make up the vast majority of any Maple server, contrary to the observed forum population, which tends to attract the more serious meta-chasers and is not representative of the general server population. These more casual types of players are also the players that need to be attracted to the server to stimulate server growth.

    And as of right now, in this server, some of these casual players are being barred from certain end game content based off of the class of their character. Let's use a scenario as an example.

    Some pink bean group is recruiting players. They have 1 spot left to fill. They currently have all of the group utility skills accounted for, through mules or otherwise. SI, TL, SE, HS, HB, etc. The rest of the slots are filled out with Night Lords and Corsairs to maximize DPM. Out of the players they are recruiting from, there exists another Night Lord, a Bow Master, a Corsair, and a Hero. Who would they choose to be the last member in their group? Why would they choose the Hero, when it has lower single target DPM output than any of the other available options, and also provides nothing for the group in its current state? The Hero would be the last pick, and they would probably opt for the Night Lord, Corsair, and then Bow Master in that priority order.

    Lets use the same example, but lets pretend that Heroes' Armor Crash actually provides group utility. The pink bean group has 1 spot left to fill, and all of the group utility skills are accounted for except for the new and improved Armor Crash. Of the players they are recruiting from, there exists a Night Lord, a Bow Master, a Corsair, and a Hero. One of the players in the group also has access to a Hero mule, with Armor Crash. Who would they choose to be the last member in their group in this scenario? Because they don't yet have access to Armor Crash, the options they would probably choose from are either the Hero player or the Hero mule. In this case, the Hero player would likely be chosen, because even though their single target DPM isn't anything to gawk at, it's better than the Hero mule's would be, while at the same time providing the same group utility benefit.

    I guess what I'm getting at is that yes, if Heroes were given a group utility, the class would undoubtedly be muled by multi-clienters, as is currently the case for all of the other group utility skills. But even with those mules present, at the very least the door would be open for more casual Hero players to be accepted into end game compositions. I know its easy to drown out the voice of these more casual players because they don't have a presence on the forums, but these casual players do exist, and they are very important for the growth of the server. Can you imagine how discouraging it would be for a newer player to invest tens of hours into the server, leveling up a character, to then be told that in order to be accepted into end game content, they must remake their character as another class? How many in this scenario would you imagine actually reinvest all those hours into another character, and how many do you think would turn the other way and quit?

    Every class needs a role to stay relevant. Every role is mule-able, and every role will be muled. This is unavoidable unless all of the classes are homogenized into having the exact same DPM, and this is not realistic. As long as one or more classes are better than another in terms of DPM, those classes will be prioritized over others, except to fill group utility roles. And as they currently stand, Heroes have neither high single target DPM nor a group utility role. They are being left out of end game content.

    Why should the fact that giving Heroes a group utility skill will inevitably lead to mules be the reason they cannot receive a role in end game content?

    It's not important that the group utility Heroes and to a lesser extent Paladins be given is the ability to dispel Weapon/Magic Cancels, I actually like the solution presented by GurkGurk a lot too. What is important is that they be given some group utility to stay relevant in end game content, and the warrior Crash skills seem like the perfect candidates for this.
     
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  11. Oradious
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    Oradious Mr. Anchor

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    End game content and casual player don't belong in the same sentence. You can't have your cake and eat it. If there's a will, there's a way to mule. You can apply the same argument to DrKs in its current state, just look at how much of a meme it is in content like PB. You can cope yourself and think that you are more than a mule, but everyone knows that if the run was to be cut, your role is the most easily replaced by a mule.
     
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  12. OP
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    twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    What I was referring to as a "casual player" is someone who doesn't multi-client for the purpose of muling other characters for group utility buffs. Do you mean to imply that players who do not multi-client for muling purposes have no place in end game content like pink bean?

    If this is the case, I fundamentally disagree.

    I believe that all of the individual character classes on their own merit (independent of whether or not people would mule them for extreme optimization) should have a place in all of the game's content, end game included.

    If you disagree with this, why? Why should some classes have no place in end game content? Because they are "beginner classes" and require less HP washing to participate in end game boss runs? Fine, let their DPM numbers pay the price for that. But don't bar them from entry entirely. At the very least, give them the ability to replace one of the mules.

    This is the case with Dark Knights, as per your example. Are they optimal in pink bean groups? Far from it. But they are welcomed into pink bean compositions (because of their group utility in Hyper Body) and can at the very least pretend to be more than a mule, as you've described. And to satisfy single-client players, this is all that is needed. Having a role to play, so they are not actively avoided in end game content.

    In the game's current state, end game bossing groups do not recruit Heroes. Period. Not even as mules. If there are spots to fill in their group, they would rather fill them with the classes that are toward the top of the single target DPM charts. A space is reserved for other classes as well because of the group utility that they offer. Yes, most of the time these spots are filled with mules. But an active Buccaneer, Bishop, Dark Knight, Marskman, or Bowmaster would be welcomed into these groups because there is a space for them in that they could replace one of these mules. Heroes do not have this niche. Paladin's don't either, but this is slightly less of a concern because of their higher (but still not top tier) DPM.

    People won't even bring a Hero mule into end game bossing groups, that's how undesirable they are. If they're going to bring a mule, why would they bring a Hero instead of one of the other classes that offers something to the group? Heroes have nothing to offer in this end game single-target meta, and that needs to change.

    If Heroes were given some added group utility, would they be muled the hell out of? Yes, absolutely, but so what? If they really wanted to, extreme optimizers (less than 10% of the server population, and that's being generous) would create another account and run another client for bringing another mule to their boss runs, or they might decide its just not worth the effort and continue on as they had been without a Hero mule. But it's up to them to decide, they can make the choice of whether they want to or not.

    Right now, single-client Hero players do not even have the choice to participate in end game content or not. Even if they wanted to, they are often excluded outright. And that's not right.

    So yeah, if Heroes were given a group utility, extreme optimizers would feel obligated to make another mule character and run another client for their bossing runs, and the number of Hero mules would inevitably rise. But that's a small price to pay for the added benefit of opening up end game content to single-client Hero players.

    I think the overarching disagreement here stems from the difference in perspective from two different populations; that of the people who multi-client for muling and that of the people who stick to playing the game in a single-client. From the perspective of the multi-clienters, introducing group utility to Heroes would obligate them to create another mule account and run another client for their bossing runs. They do not feel the effects of the current exclusivity in pink bean compositions which currently exclude Heroes.

    The other side is that of the people who play on only one client, and if they are Heroes (or a like undesirable class), are currently feeling like they are excluded from some of the games content. Adding group utility to these currently undesirable classes would open the door for these single-client players to be welcomed into end game content.

    When the population of multi-clienters is so much smaller than that of the single-client players, why should the status quo favor this side of the debate? And especially when the problem that arises in adding some extra group utility to Heroes is a mere obligation to create another mule character for multi-clienters, while the current problem affecting single-client players is the much more severe exclusion from in-game content, why shouldn't the status quo favor inclusivity?

    I don't see the sense in it.
     
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