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Make Panic/Coma Useful: Front Load Combo Attack

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by twing1, Jul 16, 2022.

  1. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    Hey yall, this will be a thread about increasing the usage of the Hero's skills "Panic" and "Coma". It's not calling for buffs to any of the skills in a Hero's toolkit, its simply suggesting a change to Combo Attack that will offset the DPM loss from using Panic/Coma.

    The Problem:

    Panic/Coma go largely unused, because they deplete the built up combo orbs of a Hero's combo attack. For those who don't know, each orb increases a Hero's damage, so depleting these orbs through the use of Panic/Coma actually results in a loss of effective DPM. Because of this, Panic and to a lesser extent Coma usage is currently reserved for the very last second before combo attack runs out. That results in one cast of Panic/Coma every 200 seconds, and even so casting one of these skills results in a very negligible DPM increase over simply spamming brandish. Because of this, these skills are often completely ignored.

    Potential Solution:

    Front load Combo Attack so that part of its benefit comes instantly from simply casting the skill, while the other half is acquired through the orb mechanic. It is important to note that this is not calling for a buff to the maximum amount of damage provided by combo attack, its simply loading half of the skill's benefit on the initial cast while the remaining half is to be gained the same way it is currently gained on live through the use of the orb mechanic. Some numbers for example:
    -Max level combo attack on live provides a 1.0x multiplier to Hero damage at 0 orbs and a 1.4x multiplier to Hero damage at maximum orbs.
    -This proposal would make it so that max level combo attack would provide a 1.2x multiplier to Hero damage at 0 orbs and keep the 1.4x multiplier to Hero damage at maximum orbs.
    -The same would be done for advanced combo attack, which currently provides a 1.0x multiplier to Hero damage at 0 orbs and a 1.9x multiplier at max orbs. Under this solution, advanced combo attack would provide a 1.45x multiplier to Hero damage at 0 orbs and a 1.9x multiplier at max orbs.​

    The Effects:

    This change would provide two main benefits to Hero gameplay, outlined below:
    1. It would bring much needed variety to Hero gameplay. Decreasing the amount of damage that is lost when the Panic/Coma skills are used and the combo orbs are depleted will help to increase the net benefit from using these skills. The hope is that this will allow optimal DPM for Heroes to be achieved by using Panic/Coma as soon as the maximum amount of orbs are reached instead of using them once right before combo attack runs out. This would not only allow these two skills to see more usage, but it would also make Hero gameplay more interesting. Right now, Hero gameplay is summed up by spamming brandish, regardless of situation. Multi-target? Spam brandish. Single-target? Spam brandish. Incorporating these skills into the rotation will not only make gameplay more active by requiring the resource management of combo orbs, but also by choosing which skill to use (Panic/Coma) depending on single-target or multi-target encounters.
    2. It would boost Hero single target DPM more than it would boost Hero cleave damage. Right now, Heroes are top tier in cleave damage so they don't need any help there, but are lacking in the single target DPM department. That wouldn't be a problem, except that all true end-game content focuses on single target DPM. As the meta currently stands, end game group compositions cram as many top tier single target DPM jobs into their raids as possible, reserving slots only for other jobs that offer utility skills to support the aforementioned damage dealers. Heroes have neither top tier single target DPM nor a utility skill (rage can be replaced with cider, and is rendered completely obsolete with onyx apples), and are therefore not desirable for this sort of content. Increasing Hero single target DPM would decrease the DPM lost from incorporating a Hero attacker into a group, which would help Hero acceptance into endgame group composition. Its important to note that I'm not calling for Hero single target DPM to rival that of the current top dogs (Night Lords and Corsairs). They are already great cleavers, they do not deserve top single target DPM also. But they could definitely use a boost to keep them relevant in single target content.

    The Balance of It:

    The suggestion to load half of Combo Attack's benefit on the initial cast is just that: a suggestion. If balance dictates, more or less can be front loaded to achieve the desirable effect. If half of it being front loaded is too strong, the front loaded portion can be dropped to anywhere between 0-50% of its total effect, whatever balance dictates. The goal isn't to increase Hero DPM by too much, only to increase the usage of Panic/Coma. If using these skills still nets a DPM loss with half of Combo Attack's benefit being front loaded (though I really doubt this would be the case), the upfront portion can be increased anywhere between 50-100%. Adjustments will be left for the balance team to decide on.

    The Logistics:

    It seems like the logistics behind this change would be fairly easy to implement. All it takes is halving the current values of the orbs, and then introducing a new component of combo attack that is a flat stat modifier. That code already exists elsewhere. And, the value of the change is good: modify one skill, and 2 other skills will be benefitted with very minimal impact on overall game balance.
     
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  2. fael
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    fael Nightshadow

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    i like the idea to make it a little better, but id like to see like how much dpm this change would give to them. you must remember you cant make heroes better than paladins (or you gonna ruin the job).
    this discussion about heroes is interesting because many people consider they CAN do a decent single target damage. for example: in verga (single target boss), they can stand inside the body spamming brandish the whole run and it probably deals better damage than a night lord needing to avoid dispel/sed attacks. also, seems there is no hero with good enough gears to compare dpm at pink bean. the last one with good gears that appeared on dpm section was long time ago where we werent aware about few micro optimization strategies, so it's really hard to say hero is that bad on single target.
     
  3. OP
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    twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    I whole heartedly agree. And the change isn't primarily about increasing Hero DPM. A change to Hero DPM isn't actually inherent in this proposal at all.

    Because casting Panic/Coma right now is currently a DPM loss, but Panic does hit harder than brandish, there is an exact point in front loading somewhere between 0-100% of combo attack's damage bonus where casting Panic as soon as max orbs are hit would exactly equal Hero DPM on live, as it currently stands.

    Coma is a bit tougher to balance around because of number of target variability. In 1-3 target encounters, Brandish beats out Coma, so this change would have absolutely no effect on Hero 3 target cleave DPM. In 4-6 target encounters, however, Coma does start to beat out Brandish, so this change would improve Hero 4+ target cleave.

    That means there are 3 other "breakeven" points somewhere in the front loading of combo attack (somewhere between 0-100%) that would allow 4-6 target Coma being cast as soon as max orbs are hit that would exactly equal Hero cleave damage on live, so that casting Coma as soon as its ready would result in neither a DPM gain or loss, but would net a free stun. Because of the target variability inherent in Coma, however, balancing the front-loading of combo attack around this breakeven point is sure to have no effect on Panic usage, and it will remain a nearly unused skill.

    The numbers can be balanced around any of these breakeven points, because any amount (0-100%) of combo attack's damage bonus can be front loaded. Logic tells us that all of these points exist somewhere, its just a matter of playing with the numbers to find the right balance.

    If it were up to me, I would balance it around the Panic breakeven point, or even a little beyond that, as to ensure that both Panic/Coma will see increased use from the change. This would lead to Panic, when fully optimized and being cast as soon as orbs are built up, increasing Hero single target DPM. As mentioned above, outside of a few edge cases like standing inside of Verga body, Hero single target DPM could use a boost. 4-6 target Coma damage would inevitably be increased by this change as well, but to me this isn't a problem area. In most boss encounters (where DPM counts the most), its already very difficult to hit 3 targets, let alone 4-6. Because of this, the increase to 4-6 target Coma damage inherent in this change wouldn't affect Hero's cleave DPM in bossing situations, and it would be nothing more than an increase in multi-target training efficiency.

    There is a reason that no Hero is currently willing to invest in perfected gear. Why would they when the mesos required to invest in that gear can go towards a different class more suited to end game content (single target)? Heroes are due for a boost, but if this proposed change proves to be too large of a buff, the frontloading of combo attack can easily be brought back down to a more reasonable level, or even at any of the the 4-6 target Coma use on max orbs breakeven points (though a dip to this extreme is almost sure to come at the cost of Panic usage).

    This thread isn't primarily a "buff Heroes" thread, but more of a "let us use more skills in our toolkit" thread. And this proposal is the closest I've seen to expanding the Hero's toolkit without inherently increasing their DPM or overloading them with utility.
     
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  4. OP
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    twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    Edited the original post to include a more accurate description of how Combo Attack affects Hero damage numbers.
     
  5. Hiimalex
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    Hiimalex Slime

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    So although combo attack was unchanged, for all the other heroes out there, how do you guys feel about the panic update?
    Personally it feels more fun to play having to use it, but not quite worth it to be using it for damage since so much rng. And the range of the damage panic can do is so large.
     
  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    upload_2022-8-15_15-17-34.png

    Not too bad. I'm a fan of the changes.

    A couple of other things I would want to see:
    • Combo not getting dispelled
    • Re-casting combo orb shouldn't bring orb counter back to 0
     

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  7. Hiimalex
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    Hiimalex Slime

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    How many times would you say you hit panic in that dpm1?
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Didn't count it, but I can say a very large majority of times it only took 3 brandishes to get from 5 orbs to 10. It felt very fluid to me.
     
  9. OP
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    I love the change. Having panic cost 5 orbs instead of all basically does the same thing as my proposed solution would: at max orbs, using panic drops the bonus damage combo attack provides from a 1.9x multiplier to a 1.4x multiplier. My suggestion asked for panic use to drop the multiplier down from 1.9x to 1.45x. Effectively, they are pretty much identical.

    I think the damage nerf to Panic was justified, as the numbers are looking pretty good as is. It also makes Hero gameplay less mindless and more engaging.
     
  10. S_tieralbum
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    S_tieralbum Brown Teddy

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    Very cool change, just as the doctor ordered. A reasonable single target DPM boost that is more attention demanding than holding down Brandish but without needlessly buffing cleave potential. Not a one button class anymore. Also more trivially but still, less obsolete skills = good now Hero 3rd job isn't just 'max Combo' thats also nice
     
  11. TWW
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    TWW Pink Teddy

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    1m DPM difference if you cancel perfectly?
    Still won't use this shit because it requires too much skill :rolleyes:
     
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  12. S_tieralbum
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    S_tieralbum Brown Teddy

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