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[Suggestion] Remove shadowers IED buff

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Soblet, Oct 30, 2022.

  1. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Hi all,

    During the last anniversary/summer balance update shadowers received a new buff called IED or ''Ignore ''Enemy Defense''. Basically if you fully charge your assassinate you get a little damage boost depending on how much defense the mob you're fighting has.


    This makes little to no difference in most boss fights as there simply isn't enough downtime to fully charge your assassinate and get enough return from the IED (things like Ravana, Jiaoceng or Nibelung for example). In these cases you get a small dps boost for 30 seconds at the beginning of the fight and that's it. Won't change your gameplay at all.

    In some boss fights it's a nice little bonus for having downtime. Typically these are the bosses where shadowers ''shine'' already (mostly Horntail but also Zakum and some others to a lesser extent). Any boss that weapon cancels and in particular the ones that have long weapon cancels or seduces fall under this category. Again the IED buff won't change much of your gameplay.

    Then we have the bosses where it does make enough of a difference to pursue the IED buff (only Toad and the Boss afaik). In this case it does change shadower gameplay since the best dpm will be obtained by charging your assassinate for 12 seconds then spamming assassinate (or nate+dash if you can) for another 30 then rinse and repeat.

    This means that in most cases the buff makes no or very little difference in gameplay and when it does it just makes shadower play even more afk than it already is (that's a whole other discussion we can hopefully have sometime).

    The advantage of casting dark sight before assassinate has always been there, you get a huge damage increase for charging it up. IED does more harm than good, please remove.

    Thank you.

    BTW all the other changes we had lately were great, this one just ain't it.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Would it be better to make IED give more Skill Effects?
    • IED could give:
    1. Ignore defense
    2. Shorter Wait Time depends on value of AVOID stat
    3. Additional Attack buffs
    Since you’re saying it’s not enough DPS/DPM, so might as well see if it can be buffed more to the point that it improves gameplay, to not need to spam attacks.
     
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  3. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    If you don't want IED buff for an toad for example, just don't use it like before.
    Maybe it can be changed for an flat damage boost, not enough to make you afk just to get it? idk, but removing features from a trash class doesn't seems good
     
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  4. OP
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    Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    I'm not asking to remove assassinate I'm asking to remove the newly added IED buff.

    Yes shadowers are lacking dps wise in both cleave and single target situations but I'm trying to steer more towards engaging gameplay instead of either wait in dark sight to get IED or hold down one button to spam assassinate.

    I'm sure you could change IED buff into something positive someway but not in it's current state.

    If you don't want it just don't use it doesn't really work when it means you're basically griefing yourself and others. Sure removal of IED would somewhat lower shadower damage output but there are better ways of increasing shadower dpm other than a custom buff that nobody asked for.
     
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  5. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Oops lol i just edited my msg to be this instead:

    Would it be better to make IED give more Skill Effects?
    • IED could give:
    1. Ignore defense
    2. Shorter Wait Time depends on value of AVOID stat
    3. Additional Attack buffs
     
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  6. OP
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    Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    It just sounds like a convoluted mess tbh. If you're going to add a custom skill or buff to a class (on a nostalgic server) you better have a good reason for it which isn't present in this case.
     
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  7. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Then just don't go out of your way to get the IED effect?

    Sorry I'm really not seeing exactly where it is doing harm. Unless I'm understanding this effect really poorly there should be no situation where having the buff is worse than not having the buff, so if you don't think it's useful just don't go out of your way to get it.
     
  8. OP
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    Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    ''Harm'' as in the meta being afk for 12 seconds after attacking 30 seconds at certain bosses.

    Yes I am advocating for a nerf here..
     
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  9. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    It would be nice to have 0 wait time for the IED to max charge, then it'd actually be useful since it's a single target attack anyways.

    upload_2022-10-30_14-0-28.png

    Options:
    • Reduce the charge time of IED to less than 12 seconds of afk
    and/or
    • Increase the duration of IED to be longer than 30 seconds
     
  10. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    Interesting and thanks for the information. I've always hinted that there's an issue with the long 12s charge time on Nate (prior to recent changes), which led me to toss around the idea of a shorter Charge time and/or more substantial Attack % boost here.

    Earlier suggestions had some considerations such as the sensitive aspect towards how much HP shadowers had or could survive while in DS for 12s and for how it'd be mostly strategised to efficiently work for Long Weapon Cancels and DR such as HT, Dunas and PB (walking to next statue phase/ statue WC and charge to neighboring statue/ PB body during DR) if left unchanged. But since the charge time was left untouched, I was anticipating someone to write in about this very topic of how pragmatic it currently is and the efficiency and restricted like gameplay feels.

    Again, it begs a question, is it really necessary to have IED at all? Would changing the Charge time cause less strain IF one should even wait afew seconds for a Bonus? and if IED should really be used as a multi-purpose tool against all bosses? To be honest, I've always pondered on the idea of how Shads could've been a good class during the supposed release of Dual Blade. If only DB class was deleted and a Fully Charged Assassinate rewards like Final Cut, giving players stackable attack % bonus from a mere charge of 1-2s.

    Sure, some other alternative to Bonuses on Max Charge could be explored. Here are my right off the bat ideas:
    0. Reduce charge time or Switch IED to Attack % Bonus for 1min (taking some inspirations from heartstopper/unripe apple)
    1. Max Charge removes meso costs on Meso Guard for 2mins.
    2. Max Charge applies a +1,000 W.Def and +2,000 M.Def for 120s. (note, it will remove buffs such as HT/PB)
    3. Max Charge removes Damage Reflect reflect to player and/or allows any subsequent skills for the next 60s to cause damage. (yes, this might cause some confusion to non-shads when DR appears especially in PB, kinda exciting ngl :/)
    4. Max Charge adds 1 additional damage line that deals 75% of the first line.
    5. Max Charge applies a 50% Critical rate chance and/or 25% Damage on Assasinate for 60s. (Shad ver of SE)
     
  11. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I personally think the problem inherently doesn't lie within the IED buff itself and more so in the limitations the IED buff has. It requires a player to one be in dark sight and two hold that dark sight for 12 seconds. These 2 conditions present itself as problems taking into account that 1, potions cannot be used in dark sight like underwashed being forced to leave dark sight to use potions in some scenarios (including all cures for seals), getting 1'1'd which means you don't have mana to cast nate, getting dispelled while in darksight means you lose mesoguard hence you need to leave DS to cast it (affects more underwashed shadowers). The 12 second waiting time means that the buff is only truly benefitial in certain fights and even in the ones that it is useful you might not be able to always get the effect (because of the aforementioned problems) which leads to the IED buff being too situational and not very rewarding.

    As some of the other posters stated, there are simple ways to make this better. I think for one, lowering the time it takes to to charge nate and giving it a way more rewarding charge benefit and duration would be a good approach.
     
  12. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    While I’m not entirely sure whether I’d support ridding shads of the IED mechanic entirely, I agree with the spirit of the suggestion in that the movement in the IED direction is probably not a particularly positive one for the class in a holistic sense, even though it does increase dpm by varying degrees at certain bosses.

    For one, it’s placing more focus on a relatively niche circumstance (charged nates during cancels/DRs) where shads are already supposed to excel, but actually don’t because their general dpm output is still too low. Furthermore, said circumstance is already often plagued by other issues such as dispels and being reliant on a bishop to dispel status ailments and most bosses not having enough downtime, if any, to allow for a full charge without sacrificing some damage.

    If we have to double down on this “area of strength” with the addition of IED, then one would rightly assume that it should make them top tier attackers wherever cancels and DRs are pertinent, e.g. Zak, Scar/Targa, HT, PB, or at bosses that have high defense, i.e. Toad and BGA, for if they are not then the whole addition of this custom mechanic is wholly unwarranted as it has not addressed any core shad issues and could have just as easily been substituted by a simple ~5% damage buff to nate (albeit a more dull approach). Clearly, however, this assumption is at odds with reality.

    I also speak of it as a “mechanic” but as Soblet has pointed out already, its introduction does not really change how shads have always been played, outside of Toad (and arguably not in a good way), which is a point I use to further emphasize how the introduction of IED was very needlessly “extra” as the benefit it attempts to bring to the table is indifferentiable from a simple nate buff, for all intents and purposes, except that the latter would actually be more useful and appreciated. The big picture and end result of the change is that a class that has historically been at the bottom of dpm tier lists (even after the DS tweak to nate) was given what is essentially a mild situational buff applicable only at certain bosses at which shads still remain near the bottom even after making use of it. Just why? Why go through all that extra coding trouble when we could have much more easily tacked on a boring buff to nate damage instead?

    Okay, so if the IED isn’t impactful enough, one might fairly counter the idea of removing the IED mechanic entirely by proposing that it simply be further bolstered with greater benefits or to revamp charge durations, as has already been suggested in this thread.

    Can the IED mechanic be changed in some way so as to actually move the needle and prop up shad? Yes! But at what cost…? We have to remember that when we’re suggesting ways to buff shad’s IED (in its current implementation) or field advantage at bosses that cancel/DR, we are simultaneously arguing in favor of increased relevance of dull, uninspired afk gameplay, i.e. going into DS for 12 or however many seconds and doing nothing (or downloading porn, to reference the recent shad meme) to charge up a nate every 30 seconds, which is what is already the optimal strat at Toad and The Boss.

    Even if we wanted to lower charge times and made changes such as allowing the use of ACPs during DS to make charged nates more viable, we would ironically find that doing so would only further encourage this type of “porn” gameplay because of the fact that doing nothing but charging nates back to back yields a DPM roughly equal to half that of spamming nate currently (before factoring IED). That is to say, if max charge duration were reduced by any significant degree, standing around in DS all day would be the go-to strat for every boss. That would be counter to what I would want more than anything else for shad, which is to make it a more dynamic and engaging, perhaps combo-oriented class rather than the stale “hold down nate” that it is now. I’d go as far as to say that even heroes post-panic revamp are more interesting to play now than shad, at least outside of HT, and would hate for shads identity to be centered around afking, hence my preference for any future changes to shad to move away from the new IED direction.
     
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  13. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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  14. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    The problem with the IED mechanic is that it's a bandaid to an atrocious game design, Weapon Cancels, which hasn't been addressed. You have some Shadowers enjoying being able to 'white' other classes in certain bosses but the whole party is still spending a lot of time un-engaged during Cancels and the Shadower is reliant on there being nothing to disrupt their charge up or Bishop to dispel skill lock. So while it may provide "highs" in Bosses featuring Cancels, it takes away from Shadower's power budget that should've been smoothed out into other parts of the class kit rather than being situationally strong in few situations. If the Owner/Staff ever decides to address Cancels in their own way like the other big server attempted to (but most likely not), then they have to remove the IED to give Shadowers something else.
     
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  15. CreamPuffDad
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    CreamPuffDad Timer

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    I'm kinda curious, haven't been there in a while, what DID they do to cancels?
     
  16. xDarkomantis
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    xDarkomantis Mushmom

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    They did a few General changes:

    • They made Weapon Cancel and Magic Cancel alternate rather than having your squad running into Weapon Cancel possibly 5+ times in a row (like on Legends)
    • Scarga has reduced Cancel frequency and Cancel duration reduced by half; they reduced timer to 30mins (from 1 hour) so that it's challenging but isnt a snooze fest sitting there waiting for the cancels to go out
    • Nibergen has reduced Cancel frequency and Cancel duration
    Since Paladins were very very unpopular, Royals Staff came up with a decision to give them a role in Bosses featuring cancel: White Knight Defense Crash reworked into Total Crash. Total Crash removes Cancel and goes on cooldown for 4 mins (if I remember correctly). This caused Paladins to slightly be wanted but encouraged making them as Crash mules instead, taking 3 of them into Zak/Horntail (or 1~2 into Krex) and furthering Elitism in recruiting. Later on, they walked back on the idea and reworked Total Crash again into giving a no cooldown 20sec (or 30, I forget) duration party buff that gave attackers a high chance of penetrating through Cancel on damage lines. Crash mules became less seen and Paladins were more welcome into parties, especially Cleave parties.

    While I don't really like Total Crash, its still better than OG and better than before when it came to the heavy muling that resulted from it's earlier incarnation.
     
  17. OP
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Remove shadower IED in 2024 as a treat?
     
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  18. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    This actually was the case for a while and staff actually implemented the alternating cancels but since it applied to all bosses it was actually highly unpopular since at things like HT heads the cancels would all sync up eventually and you'd have entire squads just sitting there waiting for the guaranteed 3 weapon cancels to finish.

    I think they've done a few changes to make it more bearable since they reverted it and it feels much better now, but I think reducing the timer for scarga is a good idea.
     
  19. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    As a shadmain Im not particularly enthousiastic about IED, but I wouldnt necessarily want to remove it either. It IS very situational, and mostly useless, but its a small help for our sadge (but fun!) class. I do agree it hasnt given shads the boost that it probably intended to do.

    Theres easy ways to buff shads (make shield mastery useful for example) but theyd be considered boring as it wont change the actual gameplay (like SE working on nate`s first 4 lines). However, a non-boring playstyle changing buff is hard to come up with and would be very custom.
    (Please dont come up with "weaving", thats not gonna work nor be different than a boomstep+nate combo)

    As much as the meta might be "hold one button down", that goes for pretty much all classes and thus isnt an entirely legit excuse to not do the "boring" buffs.


    Offtopic: #BuffTimelessList
     

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