Thief [Meltryllis] Big Boy HP Build For Night Lords

I just want it to work and how inefficient is it in relation? Is it by ov

I like what you're saying about a 4 int character that has the potential but is somewhat playable.

What route would I go to make this happen? Is there not a straight forward answer to this?

 

Because NX remains the bottleneck. In most scenarios it's best to separate fresh and stale washing - there's no time loss in between.

 

Didn't see the second part of your edit until just now. Still trying to wrap my head around your efficiency equation and I think my brain broke.
So if I'm getting this correct - the goal is to maximize number of fresh hp washes while minimizing the number of mp washes, and you can do this by prolonging your wash solely to take advantage of the level up MP?

Is there really any other reason to prolong your wash into such later levels if not for just the level up MP gained?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my experience, it shouldn't take more than 390 base INT (by level 81) and 375 mp washes (end of wash by 155) to get to comfortably get to 30k hp by 200. Are you prolonging your wash till 175ish just for the 20 levels of level up MP to reduce the number of MP washes?

Or am I missing something else?

 

Yeah, for a set HP/MP goal and washout level, there's a base INT that minimizes NX usage assuming you work down from most efficient to least efficient methods. Usually you want to start with only fresh HP wash and then move to only stale. Not sure if there's specific points where it's most efficient to mix but it's probably very niche like 30%+css when scrolling imperfect gear.

IMO with higher base INT you want to utilize every single AP until you wash out. Excess MP is VERY cheap, if you have 520 base INT that's like 250 MP at the cost of 15.5k NX.

 

I mean I get that, but unless you’re going for something like excess MP, wouldn’t it just make more sense to get to a more reasonable amount of base INT and end your wash earlier at the cost of maybe a weeks worth of NX? 520 base INT is attained at lvl 107. If you end your wash at 160, that’s still 270 AP you can use to Mp wash which will net you 13,500 excess MP without including level up and INT gear bonuses, which should bring you closer to that magic 17-18.75k excess mp number to reach the ~25k hp from conversion.

So what does prolonging your wash to 175+ do? You don’t need to MP wash anymore because it’d be in excess. Is the next 15 levels of leech worth the 780 mp it yields (leveling up 15 times with 520 base int)? That would be a savings of 15.6 washes at 520 base INT, or a week of voting.

 

yep that's why you target hp/mp and int first - washing above intended washout level isn't as efficient but is nice to eek out some stats.

I forgot to mention that the level you start double washing is also a variable to ensure the right amount of fresh v stale washes x)

 

Ah in that case I’m comfortable with my initial approach. Much easier to remember to just use every stat on the way up and I get to just enjoy the extra HP early on. Being nice and plump at 7.5k hp by 120 was nice.

Personally not a fan of leeching much past 160. If it’s only a matter of voting for a week versus trying to leech from 160-175, I’d take the simpler route of just waiting and voting a week. I thought the difference would be much greater, but that really is only if you are trying to eek out excess MP, and you’d be spending the NX MP washing anyways.

 

Yup! Although the span of 15 levels should still decrease NX by over a week. The assumption was given static hp, mp, target int, starting double wash level, and washout, there's a minimum NX amount. Moving washout level forward might increase amount of stale washing or decreasing the level to start double washing, both of which increase costs significantly.

 

The above scenario (520 base INT, wash out by 160) doesn't require double washing as the MP gain from the allotted 270 MP washes and level up gains should be sufficient to reach the needed ~18.5k MP.

Ideally, if you're trying to optimize MP gain per NX spent, you'd want ~390 base INT and 400 washes (786 AP resets spent in total for 14.8k MP + >3k from level up for a total of 18k MP)

If you MP wash earlier, it's for a loss as you'd be gaining less MP than waiting for after your target baseINT/optimal MP wash gains. If you continue to MP wash past the 400, you're both cutting into your # of fresh AP washes and needlessly farming excess MP than is necessary.

Sure, you can lower this 786 APR number a bit by reducing your MP washes a bit by leveling up with 390 base INT for longer. The level up MP gained from extending your wash from 155 to 175 is still only 780 gained. That's 21 MP washes saved, or about 10 days of voting. Where else are you cutting costs?

I feel like prolonging your wash is only really beneficial for situations where you're trying to go for excess MP. Unless I'm completely missing something here.

 

Ya all the numbers i gave were arbitrary since i haven't been on. 520 is prob 30k/2xk. In your numbers you should already have washed out if using levelup mp.

higher washout level also lowers base int needed - and oops target int can be adjusted as a lever to reduce nx. Should be something like this:

Given static hp, mp, starting double wash level, and washout, there's a target int that minimizes NX.

The assumption is you end up with your target hp/mp at washout level, maximizing your fresh washes early, and then moving to stale washes. If you account for all that + base int washout you can find min nx.

 

How is it possible to play with that much int, do you just have to leech or what exactly is the strat to level up?

 

that much means 500?
i think til 200-250 u can deal with. after this, things will start to be hard, but if u apple all ur problems are gone

 

I had 440 base int at lvl 135 and managed to run zak/krex runs with slightly above avg gears. Reduced to 250 by lvl 160 for 12man ht runs.

 

I have a lvl 46 sin with 216 INT, I'm wondering how 18750 HP is achieved by lvl 175. I'm more curious to compare (what I assume this is) double wash vs regular HP wash? I was using a calculator on my first sin I was trying to wash with a goal of 420 INT for 15k HP by lvl 200 but you can get 18750 HP by lvl 175 with only 200 INT? How does that work and why does it work so much better? I'm not understanding how it becomes so high so quickly...

I've seen threads about how to double wash but I've never seen an example in practice so I'm curious is this a way to do it? I've also already used all my available washes so I wonder if that would interrupt this method too but I wouldn't mind going to something like 300 INT since I was already going for 420 INT for less HP than explained here.

 

So, in order to create enough HP as a thief, you need to mix MP Washing (AP -> MP -> LUK) and Stale HP Washing (MP -> HP)

Some classes can get away with JUST Fresh HP Washing (AP -> HP -> LUK), but as a thief, you need more HP than that can get you.

I really love this thread, and if you want to read more on the topic, here's a link for my post talking a little more about the what and the why of washing a Night Lord.

Feel free to message me if you want help calculating the requirements for your target HP!

 

Here's my calculations for my character's goals (18750 by lvl 135 then around 25000 by lvl 200):


Using your other guide I saw:

So I wanna assume I should start that right away even if it's only from 221-250 INT but I guess I didn't fully understand the MP wash and stale HP wash concepts since I've only done regular washing. So from my calculation (mainly focused on 2nd calculation) until lvl 53/250INT I should:

Fresh +MP, Reset -MP, Stale +INT ?

That has a net gain of MP for later? Should I ignore Fresh +HP, Reset -MP, Stale +INT for now?

Next:

Now here I was under the impression it's (250INT for me):

Fresh +MP, Reset -MP, Stale +LUK

But the calculator made me think I needed to wait until after lvl 135/resetting INT to 4 to do this process so do I not need to wait for that?

Here there might be a typo but I also just don't understand:

The 2nd and 3rd bullet are the same question but I'm also not quite understanding Stale HP Washing:

Reset -MP, Stale +HP

Does it require you to still have at least 1 AP in the shared HP/MP pool, since by this point I'm under the impression we've kept 0 AP in that pool as MP Washing increased MP via Fresh +MP, Reset -MP (0 in pool), Stale +LUK? (I assume that's the simple solution but I don't know)

My last question would be unrelated to the post but the calculator:

"Lvl 53-64 / lvl 136-200 (HP or LUK, 390 AP to HP total)"

Is this Fresh +HP, Reset -MP, Stale +LUK and can this reset be done before lvl 135 or would it be Fresh +HP lvl 53-64, then Reset -MP, Stale +LUK after 135? Or does this reset even need to be fresh? This was 75 levels total only giving me 375 AP so 390 AP mentioned above throws me for a loop (maybe reiterating me not understanding the concept of stale washes in practice, if so just answering the previous quote's questions would answer this one probably).

A lot of these questions if you don't feel like being detailed hopefully I set them up for easy yes or no responses. Honestly if you don't want to tackle them one by one just giving me a reset roadmap based on my calculator if my questions missed the mark pretty hard could help me figure it out on my own too. Also I'm not following it religiously I wouldn't mind an end result of 24,000HP happening since I think there's some RNG involved in washes but thanks for the response! Washing is honestly pretty fun, just a little knowledge gatekept.

 

Doguu Great questions! I'll message you 1:1 so we can walk through these. You're on the right path!

Generally, here are a few principles that might be sources of confusion:

Types of HP Washing

Fresh HP Washing: AP -> +HP, -MP -> +LUK
Stale HP Washing: -MP -> +HP (Requires 1 point in the HP/MP pool to do)

As a thief, HP washing with Fresh AP gives 18 HP and takes away 12 MP. HP washing with Stale AP gives 16 HP and takes away 12 MP. The difference is so small, that many players opt to use mainly Stale Washing, as it doesn't require Fresh AP is a lot more flexible since you can do it at your convenience. (edit: fixed)

When to reset INT?

Once you've finished all of your MP washing, you can reset INT. Once you have enough MP created "in the bank", you have no further use for Base INT and can start resetting to make a playable character. After that, you'll have enough MP created that you can just walk around with a giant MP bar, and just Stale Wash whenever you have the NX.

Also, thanks to catching that typo!