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Why class balance sucks.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Zorele, Apr 17, 2023.

  1. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    The first point I wish to make regarding this topic is that in maplelegends GEAR matters way less than class choice in terms of the performance you can expect out of a character. In turn this goes completely against what a progression game stands for and it would make more sense for the biggest weight to be held by gear since all of these classes have the exact same goal. The varying degree of damage done by these classes should be within reasonable margin and dictated by the side benefits these classes provide in the context of a group and mostly in the form of utility skills.

    Currently the biggest problem and not necessarily the only one is shadower. I pick shadower for this exercise because it’ll all feel like this one big hyperbole but I assure you not, these are actual numbers. For the numbers I will present I'll use Akash’s DPM guide since it’s the most updated guide. Since I'm going to exclusively use akash’s numbers I will provide first for reference the expected DPM of an endgame shadower with perfect gear and apple (including a perfect shield). The reference number is 12.82m (Using the NATE as a reference since nate dashing has mostly niche uses and a handful of limitations). You can feel free to confirm any of this but shadower in this list is the weakest of any of the attackers. I choose to ignore intentionally weaker builds such as 1h pally/heroes since these classes are presented with better, cheaper options. The closest class to shadower in this list is hero who does a 13.55m DPM. It’s arguably not a big gap but if you take into account this doesn't consider the usage of panic at all and since this is all purely theoretical, it should be 10% more of that base number. Some other reference numbers would be a 20.45m dpm corsair, 17.14m NL, 15.28m BM, 14.74m MM.


    I mentioned earlier in this post that class choice matters infinitely more than gear and let me highlight this by providing some interesting breakpoints considering endgame gear and ciders. Roughly a shadower would need 61 external att (assuming perfect shield dragon khanjar) and 110 att assuming the usage of apple to do the same damage as a Nl . What this ultimately mean is that chances are that a random NL with average gear still damages even the #1 shad of the server with infinitely more expensive items. I’d argue that from a game design standpoint this doesn’t make any sense. All these “attacker” classes have the exact same objective of dealing damage and the current gap that exists would mean that no amount of effort and gear could put shadowers close to their sister class NL. Just to give an example of what a healthy gap would look like we could compare the even breakpoint of BM and NL. The att equivalence is roughly 22~ att. This breakpoint gives room for a superior BM be it gear wise or skill wise to outperform a NL all while providing arguably the most important damage buff in the game

    I’m sure we can all agree there’s a significant gap between these numbers but what does shadower really offer to merit being weaker by this gap? Usually the most mentioned points are shads ability to cleave, the importance of smoke, their ability to grind, their damage efficiency and lastly their survivability. To keep things short shad is by far the worst “cleaver” being weaker than all 3 warriors (Yes, paladins cleave better), While smoke is useful , their use is infinitely less significant than other utility skills and is not something you'd go out of your way to get. In terms of grinding shads are generally good grinders yet the importance of this perk is fairly limited. Warriors get roughly give or take the same rate and despite what many people think the rates that ranged attackers can get at 7f isn't far below than what melees can and not to mention leeching and bossing for exp exists so there’s a lot of alternatives. Exp is also a “limited need” so only so much importance can be given to it. While shadowers damage efficiency is good, the same can be said about every ranged attacker who’s avoid numbers plus the less frequent need to reposition compensate can and even surpass. Warriors have 90% stance which offer superior damage efficiency, Buccaneers have range for ⅔ of the time, iframes, stance and avoid..

    Then the biggest perk shadower has is their survivability. But can you really balance a game based on survivability? The short answer is no. If the “perk” to survive would be exclusive to shadower then the other classes would have no room to participate in content not to mention how hp washing trivializes this “perk” in 90% of the content the game has to offer. Recently there’s been a lot of hype regarding shadowers in PB but the fact is that you only bring a shadower because there isn’t another NL to take the spot, it’s not that the class offers a particularly mandatory tool the same way Buccs, archers and even bishops do.

    Why should NL be the survivable thief with damage while shad is just the survivable thief without damage? Why does the class with the least damage by a significant margin also have the least important supporting skill (Unless someone is of the opinion that smoke > SI/SE/TL/Holy Shield)?

    There’s obviously more issues in general with class balancing but personally I think it’s easiest to make a case for shad since it seems to me the most problematic regarding the attackers. I have a few other comments regarding other classes but depending on the way the main thread develops I'll be sure to comment. With that being said, thanks for reading and definitely do voice your opinion. I don't claim to know it all and while there are facts between in my post, there's also opinions so feel free to agree or disagree and explain your rationale.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I don't think anybody really believes the game is currently balanced between the classes, so of course there is going to be a discrepancy when comparing one of the weakest classes to one of the strongest classes.

    We've been waiting for another class rework thread - the first and last one being the Dragon Knight thread that came 7 months ago, with its implementation coming 6 months after the thread. We can probably expect this pace to be similar to all implementations moving forward.

    The Challenge System is one that will make balance between the classes a bit more interesting since ease of washing is now less of a factor, but that too hasn't been released yet.

    That said, I think shadowers definitely deserve a better rework. IED is big meme.
    Same could be said with most melee classes, actually, when comparing melee vs range.
     
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  3. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    sullivansullivan curious to hear some of u words
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
  4. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    i only see problems with apples here
     
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  5. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    This is a good point, if onyx apples did not give cheap + 100 attack, the raw gap between classes would be less (because the stronger classes scale better with weapon attack than the weaker ones).

    ZoreleZorele is the 61 external attack assuming both the shad and nightlord are using onyx apple?

    I agree with OP in that the most impactful thing is your class choice, not your gear. The amount of gear / player skill needed to match the DPS of a mediocre NL in pink bean is very difficult for non meta classes to achieve.

    However, I would like to see some evidence that the average NL consistently outperforms the rank 1 shadower. I am skeptical of this claim.
     
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  6. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I completely agree apples are a massive problem. There's a relatively significant gap between the DPM per att classes get. The fact that apples provide 80 att from the baseline further highlights the issue but i personally think what apples do only that : highlight the issue.
     
  7. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I did not assume the usage of apple. The number might vary depending on different levels of funding but with your very own spreadsheet i compared this using cider as a baseline. The 61 external att is the context of endgame for both. The number could vary slightly depending on what stage of funding we are at. That part might be an exagerration in the aspect that i didn't clarify what i meant. If we take a lvl 200 nl vs a lvl 200 shad, the shad using the craziest of gears and the NL using "good" based on the roughly 61 att external attack gap "needed" there's a good chance that the NL smashes the shadower. I also wouldn't make any claim regarding anything but dummy DPM for this matter since we can't measure how skilled the average NL is vs the #1 shad which would more likely be inclined to "sweat" for amazing numbers.

    Edit: Assuming the usage of apples and the same gear showcased in your thread the breakeven would roughly go up to 110 att. To make this a bit more fun i decided to assume 0 att cape/shoe/glove and a 51 att clean craven with MTKs and the result was 10.7 M NL on apple and 12.8 M shad on apple
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
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  8. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    This might be an uncommon opinion but i really don't think hero is as bad as a lot of people think. At the the end of the day, given proper panic usage their damage is SLIGHTLY less than BM. The main issue with hero is their lack of utility and the varying range of panic which would be an "easy fix"., they'd be decent at most content. Judging them by their ability to be good at high EV bosses i'd say they are better than shadowers. The top 4 EV content is probably PB, HT, CB and CWK. In 3 out of these 4 heroes perform better than shadowers. At the end of the day, if you play at a daily basis you'll earn an infinitely larger amount of meso from running HT/PB/CWK over a weekly PB so i'd say in terms of the money making bosses heroes aren't actually bad at all and viewing it through that scope, it is a better alt/2ndmain/mule than shadower.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2023
  9. CauTion
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    CauTion Master Chronos

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    single target classes always make more single target dpm ...
    but i think ppl way underestimate shads kek
     
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  10. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I don't think any kind of estimation is being done here good sir, the numbers that i presented are based on a DPM guide with proper formulas. I'm not sure why you think shadowers aren't a single target class. Is it because they have bstep? Because by that logic MMs have piercing arrow, Corsairs have torpedo, paladins have ACB. What makes a class a "cleaver" is actually doing good cleave damage and that's not something shad does. If anything shadower is better at single target than it is at cleaving.
     
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  11. CauTion
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    CauTion Master Chronos

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    shad are able to get single target that have way better consistent at bossing not like dummies dpm if its with the avoid or the ability to keep hit the main mob at the map with nates\fullnates punish and still can 4 hit cleave that make a lot more dpm then his single target and make him the best exp mobber at 7f with good taunt use so yea I wouldn't say shad is single target or cleave class his a unique hybrid that have both to combine
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
  12. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I'd counter this by saying they are "Hybridly" shit. They are the worst out of the cleavers, and the worst out of the single target. Their avoid and damage efficiency as i mentioned in my main post is shared by NLs and other ranged at a similar degree, there's also stance for warriors and everything available including iframes for buccs. You saying that shadowers damage efficiency because of their avoid is a big pro is you choosing to ignore the facts. You can compare the damage a shad does at boss vs dummy and compare it to other classes and you'll see their efficiency isn't "godly". And actually their 7F exp is quite similar to warriors and i dare say it's probably better for warriors at which point we'd need concrete evidence but im basing this comment of previous EPMs i've seen off of the top of my head.

    At the end of the day my main point stands. You can give all the value that you want to secondary tasks but you cant deny that at the most important aspect by an absurd mile shadowers are NOT good at all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
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  13. CauTion
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    CauTion Master Chronos

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    again ill have to disagree with the statement of shadowers not good at all , maybe its not the highest single target dpm but it have a lots of pros that I experienced in game on other aspects and maybe its cus I seen that class in darker days but im very chill with the step forward that class made ..
    and again I can guaranteed that duo shads make the best epm in 7f with good taunt use
     
  14. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    Trust me, i don't doubt shadowers have seen darker days. I think they've been buffed over 50% in legends already but that comes to show how bad the class it as base and should NOT be taking as a reference for future balancing. If you say duo shad at 7f is the best EXP i'll take your word for it. We can simply disagree on the importance that getting exp at 7f. There's simply so many options to get exp some of which are more efficient in the meso:exp ratio. I don't disregard the value of casual friendly content but if you want to take that into account as well it seems like the challenge system will also mitigate a lot of that by making it easy to start up as any class. I simply believe that multiclienting and other aspects of the game render the perks someone would have by being a single client shadower player trivial.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
  15. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Mixed Golem

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    All classes are situationally good, there are so many aspects to a character beyond their end game bossing performance.

    If we just look at rankings:

    - 28 lv. 200 Shads, ~7.3k total Shads
    - 27 lv. 200 Heroes, ~5.5k total Heroes
    - 26 lv. 200 Buccs, ~4.8k total Buccs

    Keep in mind Buccs are muled for SI/TL, so it's plausible they're even less popular than the numbers suggest despite being one of the strongest end-game bossers.
    Regardless of what might be meta, players like building Heroes/Shads for whatever merits they may have, it's difficult to balance for all the these intangible facets
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
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  16. OP
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    Zorele Slimy

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    There's is no correlation between class popularity and class strength. This is pretty obvious when you take into account how classes like corsair, and buccs are relatively unpopular and are in general considered strong classes and then shadower who is popular regardless of their damage being weak. There is a huge correlation between the perception of class strength and their popularity. if you go ahead and read forums for the past 8 years of the server shadowers have been suggested as a very good starting class and countless comments of them being "good cleavers" or "decent" single target can be found and to this day all which are very misleading and the general idea remains to this day and funnily enough shadowers were even worse back then. You can't call shadower a "Decent dpm" or "decent cleaver" if they are the worst at both. A more suiting adjective if you mean to imply it's playable would be "acceptable". The same can be said for hero as well. At the end of the day, when people keep regurgitating the same arguments that's just what the average, general player ends up believing regardless of what the math says.

    We can go back and forth and argue which benefits of shad compensate for their lackluster damage but at the end of the day if we wanna argue meso making, exp and whatever other argument the fact is that those have either better or completely viable alternatives. Dealing adequate damage for shadower doesn't even have better gearing as an option as i've clearly demostrated that comparing to certain class (probably archer and above) the amount of gear that would be needed for shadowers to break even with these classes is literally unattainable and that's something you cannot compensate for or workaround. If the argument is that shadower is a "good class" because it's "good to start" and that's what they are limited to, i don't believe any class should be a means to an end and every class should have their niche and use. No class should be made to fund another.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2023
  17. Mirrors
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    i like being a shad because i can watch anime when i horntail (sometimes i also white at zakum even if there are sairs and stuff)
    it's a good time B)
     
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  18. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I've written like 3 drafts for this thread and ditched them all because I can't quite seem to put into words the fact that reducing classes to their pb dpm just feels off.

    While I respect the frustration of being an endgame shad struggling to put up good numbers at PB, I don't think it's fair to base a statement as aggressive as "Class balance sucks" on exclusively this single factor.

    Shads are very fun to play, they are dynamic because of their fairly broad toolkit, they are beginner-friendly, easy to hit hp thresholds on, fun and efficient to farm with.

    Indeed there isn't. Which seems to me like you shouldn't base a statement as broad as 'Class balance sucks' on a class' PB dpm, when there's clearly a balanced number of people enjoying the class enough to play it.
     
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  19. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    I don't think you really should be comparing shadowers to literally the only thing NLs are good at.
    All NLs do in the game is to wait for boss parties and hope there is SE. Shadowers can solo so many different activities which makes them appealing to many people. Not to mention the low cost of maintenance due to negligble pot costs and no recharge costs.
     
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