Weapon Attack potion/buff Discussion [onyx apple]

I definitely agree that onyx apples are a very problematic item and make balance changes more complicated but here's a few considerations.

Nerfing Apples would limit the ability of some of the newer PB parties to clear the boss at all. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just stating it.

Nerfing apples would allow for less wiggle room during a boss like PB and instead of "lowering the gap" between classes it might have the opposite effect. You'd need to optimize and nitpick even more the classes you can take to boss since there will be less damage overall. Yes, it lowers the scaling gap between classes but puts the lower damage classes in a questionable spot.

 

While I'm mostly in favor of Idea #1, I don't see a need to limit Gelt effectiveness as it's already somewhat difficult to obtain and amass for general purposes. I see them more as a situational use and an extreme luxury whereas onyx apples are cheap and super accessible.

Removing high attack pots entirely would be fun for a reserved few as it would force players to change their approach to content, but overall I think it'd have an adverse effect in exclusivity.

You'd also need to address the problems of cutting off a source of income for the apple pickers.

 

#3 would be my pick for the best option.

The EV of apq is so bad that APQers would be wealthier doing literally anything else

 

I like idea #2 but I would perhaps make heartstoppers a bit more rare as 60 attack is still quite a lot and it seems like they are easy to farm. Maybe untradeable too. It would make APQ become more popular as people would have to farm apples themselves instead of just buying them.

 

What's the problem in the first place?

 

finally some nerfs instead of buff me here buff me there
#1 is nice but maybe apple and gelt should be nerfed more since the part that matters is wa above cider (in this case cider is 15 so gelt/apples are effectively 85/65 wa)

maybe some nerfs to skills that give wa or stuff like that too

 

Tldr is certain classes gain a massive advantage with the usage of attack pots compared to some others. This makes the importance of gear way less than it should be while also making some classes underwhelming and some other ones overpowered.

 

This is the main reason why I prefer idea #1 over others. I think the attack ranges can be tweaked for sure, but you'd still have the issue of making things more exclusive - which isn't inherently a bad thing, but it'd feel bad to cut off a group of people from the content they're already running for the sake of balance.

 

A small attack nerf to apples/gelts seems most reasonable. Making apples untradeable (useless for mages to apq) or changing APQs droptable would ruin the identity off APQ completely imo. APQ/Apples is a great way for less funded players to make mesos and get into content where they otherwise wouldnt be strong enough.

I dont really see a huge issue with how the other attack pots work atm, they all have their drawbacks when trying to get higher att ( Cider only stack 3ea, Energizer hard to farm, Heartstopper 1min ea etc.) If anything make rage 25attack to buff Hero.

 

Something that might deserve hammering home is the concept of scaling between classes on a per weapon attack basis. For the classes that benefit the most from weapon attack, like Night Lord, Buccaneer, and Corsair, they are also hit the hardest from nerfing cider, while Paladins and other high weapon attack classes can tank the loss better.

(assuming 40 attack between glove and cape, perfect dragon weapon, 33 att dkhan, MTKs, cider shifting 20 to 10)
Ciders going down to 10 attack would reduce endgame Shadower DPM by 223/233, or 4.3%
Ciders going down to 10 attack would reduce endgame Night Lord DPM by 171/181, or 5.5%

There's a lot of argument going on about the class balance, but in mid-game the numbers are incredibly fudged due to the scaling of classes as a whole. Early on a shad will perform comparatively to a NL, but each added weapon attack will give more power to the NL, and that has to be overcompensated for by the shad to keep up the pace, but eventually it becomes impossible.

Reducing attack pots favors the classes that have tended to be viewed as weak, as it moves back the scale to a slightly friendlier place for them. Personally I would reduce all attack pots to 50% of their original value, and reduce skill attack gain to 75%. HTB and PBB should probably be somewhere in between.

 

Thank you again for a detailed and tidy suggestion post, akashsky!

Personally, the W.Attack pot situation is not balanced at all (specially onyx apple) and idea #1 seems to be the easiest solution. Why do I want this to be changed in the first place? Well, I don’t think that it is balanced for a player with a mediocre lvl50 weapon to be able to deal more damage than somebody with a perfect +7 lvl150 weapon. Consumables should give a boost of course (maybe couple of % extra to the total damage output), but it being this strong as exemplified above doesn’t seem balanced. And by balance, I mean the balance between gear attack/stats v.s. the w.attack bonus from an onyx apple.

 

Option of making them untradable and not reduce any % attack would be my pick.
doing bosses already drain alot of time and some players tend to use apple to clear faster with less players certain bosses.
Or some mid-tier gear that want to participate in 6man HT or duo NT or anything else and willing to apple to join or else they would never be accepted.
Please do not reduce cider attack . everyone will just open hero mules that will take a spot its just not healthy for the community.

edit: about the point that NL make the most DPM out of apple, yes that's how it should be why you are all surprised that a single DPM char that all he can do is Single DPM is gaining the most from attack pot . this is how it should be.

 

I don’t think that mid-gear tier player joining 6man HT or duo NT should be the norm/feasible. Where one draws the line of content difficulty is pretty subjective, but given that for example HT is endgame and very relevant due to MW20, and it is supposed to be cleared with even more than 1 party, I don’t think that it should be doable as said above. And of course mid-gear tier can also join 12man so it is not even like they cannot join HT runs at all.

Also, if you are looking to speed things up using apples on bosses, making them untradeable is counterproductive. It will take way longer to get them through APQ than the time saved on the boss fight.

 

that might be true if you will use one client to APQ and do nothing else in the meantime . which is probably never the case most players will leech/farm with other clients or w/e in that time cause APQ is that EASY.
and if apples will be untradeable there will need to be some changes for example - number of entries a day and drop rate

 

a mid tier could with att pots and pay the price for doing more dmg ..
not everyone in that game can invest 3 hours for "endgame boss" or 9 hours a day leeching for gear .
I think if I need to choose ill pick untradeable apples ,that will take a lot of the early game funds but the other ideas leme think of end game chars controlling the PB market\runs

have to know how you got to that conclusion

 

How long does a 12man HT take? Or even a 18man run? I am pretty sure it ain’t 3 hours. Again, it is not like mid-tier geared players cannot do the content. All I‘m saying is there has to be a balance between how easy/hard/time consuming endgame content should be and, in my opinion, 6man HT run with mid-gear tier player is already „too easy“.

And what do you mean with „have to know how you got to than conclusion“?

 

You make some good points V2. 12-10 man HT often takes 3 hours for 2 runs for most of my runs across 5 groups. Also I've yet to ever seen a 18 man HT run.