Weapon Attack potion/buff Discussion [onyx apple]

dont be sure then
for many HT I did
12man\6 man all take the same time most of the time
cus you never see ppl strong enough for 6 man that will group up for 12 man
for my opinion HT is a bad income either way for the time and effort u waste on it for hard rng drops so pleas dont talk about 18 man .
tbh idm they delete apples from the game ill had benefits of it , but more then half of the game not and im sure very small group will have there hand of the end game content and ppl will get more hard time to get there.

I asked about conclusion u had about lvl 50 weapon with apple can outdmg lvl 150 +7 ?

 

I don’t get it. As someone mentioned above you could probably expect 1.5hour runs for 10-12man which ain’t that long (of course this is subjective). But why not 18man? Just talk to your guild and organize a fun 18man HT. If you only do it for the mesos/drops then as a mid-gear tier player better do JC trio or sell Reg/afk zhelms with a group. Again, the point is that YOU CAN do endgame content without apples and, as shown above, it doesn’t mean that it will take you 3hours for 1 run. And if loot-wise it doesn’t make sense to join a 12+man run, then maybe that is not the best content for you to do at that point AGAIN if you are focusing just on getting the most meso/hour.

About the weapon comparison, just look at the library for a lvl 50 weapon and a lvl150 timeless weapon… e.g Olympus bow ~70att + apple = 170att vs +7 perfect timeless bow ~160att. It depends on the class and such of course but this is just a rough comparison.

 

Idea #2 Accessibility nerfs to specific potions, seems a bit clunky in the current proposal for traders and for making the transition.
Here's what I propose, should apples become less accessible and #2 be considered:
-Convert every existing apple into a Use item "token" that can't be consumed but can be traded.
*Set required level to consume to 201+
-Convert every source of new apples into a Etc item "token" (different ID#).
-Have the Prestigious Shop allow conversion of both tokens into One-Of-A-Kind apples, prioritizing conversion of the Use token first and rejecting the transaction if you already own an apple.
-Add Prestigious Shops to more towns.

 

IMO i agree with Nadav1 and caution , it can get a nerf (especially the higher attack potion), but a thing that dont grief the casual/weakers players

 

I've always told new players to do APQ since it is the best money maker pre-fourth job. But lets say you did get a good rate of an average of 4 apples an hour, thats 12m/hr, that's pretty mediocre. But it would destroy the only worthwhile money making option for low level players. APQ is worthwhile to do while waiting for other content, like the perpetual stragglers late to HT.

It seems like buffing rage by 5 would make more sense than upending the entire system. It would probably make energizers worth a bit less.

 

Instead of discussing whether weapon attack potions/apples are balanced or not, I prefer to discuss whether the classes using apples are balanced. It's been a long established fact that certain classes benefit more from apples than others, its proved time and time again when in PB, for example, certain attackers (NL, corsair, bm, mm) use more apples than others. Nerfing weapon attack potions across the board, in my opinion, does very little the balance the game, except to make certain classes stand out more.

 

u would just bring more range at the cost of cleave.

 

I'm not sure this is what you meant so do correct me if i'm wrong. I think your statement could be arguably be true in the context of significant nerfs to attack pots that would limit the freedom to draft certain classes at pb. If there's less damage across the board = less room for mistakes and weaker classes. Yes, the gap between classes was lessened but also the viablity of these classes would take a hit. Is this what you meant?

 

If you nerf everyone's damage, the runs whether HT/PB that already have trouble clearing will be more inclined to bringing "higher" dpm classes to make up for it, therefore the weaker classes will be left in the dust. Although it seems like the problem with PB nowadays is primarily damage, but the real source is survivability. If the runners constantly die from sed during statues, it doesn't matter how many apples you have.

If weapon attack potions were truly broken and unbalanced, technically any 30 man PB run composed of only heroes, paladin, bucc (or you can choose your own composition) can clear with the correct skill set and gear, but as we can probably guess, this is not the case.

 

Yes, that is correct.

 

I think the two are unrelated. We can't attribute the current state of PB to the state of attack pots. Assuming heroes, paladins and bucc could survive the run by being skilled (and not die to rng), they too would be able to clear PB with their current damage. I think there's clear evidence to this. Currently shadowers are a more accepted pick than hero and paladins yet the damage ceiling of these 2 would technically be higher if it wasnt for their own set of survival problems. If say PB was proportionally nerfed to damage lost due to attack potions, the viability of said classes would relatively increase. I do agree with yuo however that ONLY changing att pots could lead to some undesired side effects.

 

I believe that is what I said. Currently, PB runs are the largest consumers of apples, the weapon attack pot under scrutiny (using around 90 apples for the average run). The biggest hurdle in clearing a PB run is arguably stage 4 and stage 5 of statues. The strategies most runs adopt are: 1. Focus the right bird first, which takes around to 2 minutes to clear it with apple. 2. Save right bird for last, for when all the other statues are dead and the risk of dying to physical touch damage (18k+) is lower.

But of course each strategies has their pro and cons:
Strategy 1 - Killing the right bird first:
By Killing the right bird first, it removes the #1 cause of death during statue phase, dying to a 10 second sed, during which the player cannot heal (or be healed if zombified). However, if this strategy is implemented incorrectly, it can lead to a squad wipeout.

Strategy 2 - Killing the right bird last:
By killing the right bird last, you only have to worry about the sed walk left. However, there still is a risk of dying as 10 seconds is still an extremely long and unforgiving time for classes with low hp, low avoid, or both who cannot survive the 10 seconds duration.

 

Furthermore, I would even argue that using weapon attack pots are not a strict requirement for boss clears except for PB. Most boss runs can compensate the extra attack gained from weapon attack pots by adding more runners. Are weapon attack pots as a whole unbalanced? How so?

 

Some of these groups could also run 30-man PB's but they won't.

 

actually that is the case already; the problem is indeed skill and gear

 

the fact that many groups opt to run ~20mans rather than 30man is a testament to how broken apples are. It is more profitable to use more apples rather than add more runners.

 

The ability to run 20mans PB is not a testament of apples being broken. Just like how the ability to run 6 man HT is not an indication that ciders are broken.

 

there are parties that clears 5~6 man HTs with cider or even coke pill with half of the total time of the expedition to spare, that's not the case for 20 man PBs where some runs even requires full apple time in case dcs happens, and the timer is still very tight