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Make Mavericks not able to detect Barrel in Core Blaze

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Tarnished, Nov 17, 2023.

  1. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Pac Pinky

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    Preface: I really just want to invite a discussion on the topic of Aggro Abuse in CB, since I have a suspicion fixing the Mavericks may not be technically feasible. But anyway, on the chance that the aggro is fixable, I believe that it should be done.

    upload_2023-11-17_12-59-51.png
    (Exibit A: Maverick aggro is stuck on Barrel even though they cannot hit him or see him)

    As per the skill description on Oak Barrel:

    "This skill will allow you to safely navigate your way through monsters without being recognized by them...by donning an Oak Barrel"

    Bucc's Barrel ability, similar to Dark Sight, is meant to allow the Bucc to stand in a field of monsters who have not been previously aggro'd onto it without getting attacked. Now as far as I can tell:
    • Mavericks are Monsters, not Bosses. Barrel should work.
    • It is true that Mavericks do not detect the Bucc with physical or magic attacks. If the Bucc did aggro a Maverick under normal circumstances (by punching it), then the Maverick would break barrel since it would eventually use a magic attack
    • Un-aggro'd Mavericks are able to detect the bucc with abilities. I believe this should change, because the Maverick shouldn't be able to see the Bucc at all, furthermore abilities are unable to break the Barrel so it does not make sense for the mob to keep trying a futile maneuver

    You might ask: "ok, Barrel does not break from Abilties, then what's the complaint?". And you would be right. Typically, as a player, this would not be a problem - on the contrary it is fantastic. However, from a ToS perspective, it's been said that Mavericks targeting the Barrel with their abilities could be misconstrued as aggro abuse because they will just get stuck in a cycle trying to hit the barrel.

    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/maplelegends-terms-of-service.50544/

    Any form of abuse that intentionally causes monsters in boss maps to stop using abilities or attacking is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to, positioning a character in a certain area of the map or using the death of a character to purposefully cause the boss or other surrounding mobs to freeze and/or no longer seek to attack an active player

    Elements Required for a Boss Freeze Abuse Ban

    1. Needs to affect a boss OR a mob inside a boss map. While referred to as "boss freeze", the violation is not limited to the boss itself
    2. The monster (a boss or a mob as required in #1) must cast targeted attacks onto an untargettable player (eg. via deaths) for a prolonged period of time
    3. Unintentionally causing the freeze, but not reporting it to the GM

    What is considered a prolonged period of time? This will be handled on a case-by-case basis:
    - Not resurrecting until the full 10 minute timer = IS NOT significant and NOT boss freeze abuse
    - Resurrecting multiple times to continue the freeze = IS boss freeze abuse
    - Intentionally having a dead character hold aggro when there is no chance res = IS boss freeze abuse
    - Luring Mavericks using a barrel mule in Core Blaze = IS boss freeze abuse

    I won't pretend to understand the intent of the Aggro-Abuse clause, but the rules are very vague and full of loop holes that would circumvent whatever the orginal intent was. i.e you could just use 2-3 different dead guys in series to lure mavericks for 20-30 minutes and it would specifically not be a violation of the ToS so long as you could plausibly revive them.

    I also posit that if someone really wanted to draw away Mavericks, there are far easier ToS-friendly ways to do it because Barrel is an active ability that needs to be recast frequently and leaves you vulnerable for several seconds in between casts and is susceptible to breaking to magic attacks. Furthermore, drawing in a few Mavericks with the Barrel in CB does not stop CB's attack pattern since he will continue to spawn extra Mavericks to harass the Attackers. My point is I don't think there's a significant balance or fairness related reason that a Bucc should not be able to use Barrel to stand in the Core Blaze map - on the other hand due to the ToS on aggro abuse, Maverick behavior has a very significant and negative impact on players who use SI. Trying to decipher the ToS and how it situationally applies to simply casting your character's abilities is annoying and stressful to play around.

    This is why I am suggesting Mavericks simply not lock onto Barrel, as it's a clean solution to the whole kerfuffle

    “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results” – Albert Einstein
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  2. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    All this does is promote more muling on an already mule heavy server, further hurting actual bucc mains since their main utility is now muled and that party slot can go to a higher dpm class.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Wouldn't it be better to have the mavericks also use their attacks on characters in dark sight/barrel?
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  4. OP
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    Tarnished
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    Tarnished Pac Pinky

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    While I agree with the sentiment, I disagree that Maverick behavior would further encourage or discourage muling in CB
    All it does is make the SI uncomfortable about overstepping the grey areas of aggro-abuse and risking a ban simply for using their abilities, which is not a fun mechanic to min-max around.

    If push came to shove, the DPM loss from not being able to leave SI in the boss map would would be replaced with an Onyx apple, not an active player

    To my knowledge this would make Mavericks inconsistent with all other mobs in the game, including auto-aggro mobs. But, I guess it would be fair to say the opposite, where making Mavericks not lock onto Barrel would make them inconsistent with other mobs that have abilities.

    I just think in the circumstance of Core Blaze, players should be able to use Barrel.

    upload_2023-11-17_12-39-33.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  5. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    TarnishedTarnished if the intended use case is just SI muling, staying in barrel on top of the cleave shouldn't trigger freeze clause as cleave will end up tagging the Mavericks anyways, no? You're not actually luring them anywhere if they're hitting/being hit by cleave.
     
  6. OP
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    Tarnished
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    Tarnished Pac Pinky

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    This can't be done for a significant portion of the fight, because the Imperial Guards that spawn up there will try to fight the cleave and the AoE on their magic attack will break SI's Barrel.

    The reason SI is able to stand on the ground is because Imperial Guards cannot detect the Barrel therefore won't use their magic attack so long as nobody else is down there aggro-ing them, which is working as intended.

    The reason Barrel doesn't break to Mavericks is because they are using an ability, not a magic attack. I think this is a glitch, Mavericks should not be able to see the Bucc


    upload_2023-11-17_14-3-4.png

    I've also tried to position the Barrel in the top platform circled in Red, but the Mavericks end up targeting the barrel anyway and it's very difficult to regain aggro when trying to use the attackers to pull mavericks off the Barrel
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
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  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Hmm fair. I've noticed similar behavior with Overlords too, it does seem weird that flying monsters are still attracted to the barrel and swarm around it while not being able to break it, but non-flying monsters completely ignore the barrel unless aggro'd.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    • Agree Agree x 1
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  9. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Yeah honestly I've never really had too much issue just parking at the top of the elevator. I'd imagine a Bucc could even just stand in place with a triple barrage macro and no barrel.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. OP
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    Tarnished Pac Pinky

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    I can only speak for my own use case, but the only time I need SI is for solo clears. I finish in around 55-58 minutes dual attacking on my Hero + Pally while SI-ing myself, there's hardly any margin to make mistakes. Needing to bring SI to the elevator map and back every 4.5 minutes can easily be the difference between pass/fail since I'd be making that journey 10x per run - so what I'm asking for is not trivial in terms of impact.

    It might be that this increased difficulty of buffing SI is just what is needed to keep cleave balanced, but fundamentally I believe barrel is a vital capability of a Bucc and it feels bad that its usage is limited by obscure rules that are not apparent within the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
  11. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    following the discussions to see how to improve core techniques.


    in a duo, most of the time I can manage it, but sometimes chaotic situations happen
     

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