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Add consistent knockback effects to more skills

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Alyosha, Sep 21, 2023.

  1. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    If you were to ask why Buccaneers and Paladins were so much better than Dark Knights and Heroes, you'd get many opinions but in truth all four are more similar than they are different. Their damage is all relatively on par, their health all tends to peak at the same spot, and the real differences come from Buccaneers with avoid, long iframes, utility, and of course one of the most important aspects of both Paladins and Buccaneers: their unparalleled ability to control any moving targets. This is the main reason why I see Paladins as the best warrior, and a small part of the reason why I see Buccaneers as a top 3 class.

    The crux of a run in places like Dunas, Dunas2, Nameless, and Pink Bean come from the ability of classes to pin the target in place while everyone else can wale at it. This is the reason why parties choose to recruit Paladins and Ice Lightnings in Neo-Tokyo, a Hero and a DK are incapable of serving the same purpose and are therefore stuck with the rest of the riffraff, and find themselves unable to justify their own positions when single target classes tend to offer significantly more in the way of DPS and buffs. In this way they are edged out, still requiring a Paladin or an Ice Lightning but not offering much to them in return.

    There was once a time where warriors could control Pink Bean as well, but the concept was removed with Monster Magnet being taken away and I don't think warriors have recovered in Pink Bean since. They became even less desirable through the patches with sed changes and their survivability borders on fragile when the boss is designed around characters with avoid having 30k hp or significant bishop infrastructure. So it's gotten to the point where folks have more or less accepted that only DKs are encouraged to come and that's solely due to Hyper Body. Other than that, Buccaneers hold a monopoly on controlling Pink Bean that no other class is capable of filling.

    I propose bringing tank utility to every warrior by allowing them to protect the core of their party via knockbacks. Bring about the same function of the Buccaneer's Barrage to Brandish on Heroes and Spear/PA Crusher on Dark Knights. Let those skills independently trigger knockbacks regardless of the knockback value of bosses and mobs, and allow for warriors to be a crucial piece of running smooth content.

    To go alongside that, let Monster Magnet function in Pink Bean again. It being taken away did not fix any of the janky wandering Pink Bean does so it's just another unrequited loss for all warriors there.
     
    • Agree Agree x 12
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    LUK DKs have all the fixings (accuracy + avoid) to make for a perfect afk rush pinner using 3x rush macros for content that can just be pinned against a wall with no directional preference. The problem is when you need the boss positioned in a specific location and facing a certain direction like Pink Bean. Dunas1 is somewhat similar in that you don't want it facing left, but you can get away with using a rush mule while keeping it facing right because there are platforms that restrict your own character's movements.

    I do like the idea of having more options, though. Buccaneers are uncontested in that niche and carry too much utility as a result of that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Palladino
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    Palladino Master Chronos

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    3:27 PM
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    I can only assume it’s difficult to implement since it ended up breaking the game and was reverted shortly after its release, but the attempt that was made a couple years ago to change how priority/aggro works for Rush might be a solution worth revisiting as well.

    I believe that in conjunction with enabling monster magnet in pb would suffice and make warriors more relevant in the fight, but still keep some of the buccaneer’s niche with their unique punchy-punch-face-my-way-slap-slap-slap move.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Pac Pinky

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    Firstly, i disagree with the statement that buccs and palas are way better then heros and drks.
    Drks cant really pin in nt, but they provide hb which is a crucial skill for many ranged attackers in this server, specially for the high dmg numbers from bosses in nt.
    Heros can actually pin pretty decently. It requires MUCH more focus then paladins, but ive had many runs where i was the pinner and it went smoothly. worst case someone get killed once and revived by a bsp.
    Another point is, and this might be related to timezones, im being asked to join to so many core or nt runs in general lately (hero) because there is less cleave in the server, i dont the lack of desire to bring cleaves to nt content, or content in general tbh.
    All of this is my personal experience and opinion. Yes heros are pretty bad in pb but pretty top tier in every other content beside that.

    I usualy disagree with hero buffs since the last changes because im afraid it will be overtuned and will cose a nerf to a class in a pretty good state.
     
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  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Lol you can disagree all you want but on paper and in practice paladins and buccs are all around better than heroes and dks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Pac Pinky

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    I'm all conditions, all content? Or just in pb?
     
  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    In a large majority of content.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    as EndorphinssEndorphinss says, heros can pin nt bosses, i think if drk can do the same with sacrifice should be nice (and funny)
     
  9. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    intricate balance between warriors n buccs tho. if magnet worked for bean, buccs would be relegated to SI/TL mules. no more S tier class.
    Access to PB would increase as well.
     
  10. Palladino
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    Palladino Master Chronos

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    Nah. There’s no contest. Warrior “pin” with magnet still wouldn’t compare to what a buccaneer can do. It would be akin to a bucc unbinding every skill but snatch.

    From what I’ve seen, buccaneers are also capable of putting up quite decent damage numbers, so I wouldn’t be too worried for them just yet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    IMO to warrior pin with magnet should need a rework, like str gives acc and luk no.

    and the skill itself need a rework too
     
  12. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Accuracy isn't relevant to magnet, though. Even if not having 100% accuracy harms pull chances (I don't believe it does), getting enough accuracy isn't the issue with warriors in pb.

    Back when magnet was able to be used on the bean, it was far and away a better tool than snatch due to it seemingly ignoring the usual pulling requirement of either having aggro or the mob being de-aggro'd (wandering). Coupled with a no-charge magnet being a practically lagless cast and its delay being circumvented by sheer numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if magnet was forcing too many reaggros during a state when it should not have, causing the skill freezes. I also would be interested in seeing if this issue still exists, considering the slew of "aggro changes" we've had since then. But the return of magnet won't suddenly make warrior welcome in bean; they are far too fragile in statue without the exceptional dpm to justify the risk of bringing them.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    Sorry, accuracy being part of it would be something interesting to avoid the full luk warrior mules that not even Ovv mentioned
     

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